4 ms·

> Wayland is not GNOME, what you describe is not Wayland problem, but GNOME problem. Which in turn is the biggest problem with wayland. We are fragmenting the

by gpm 4y ago

> Wayland is not GNOME, what you describe is not Wayland problem, but GNOME problem. Which in turn is the biggest problem with wayland. We are fragmenting the ecosystem with every window manager dealing with shared problems in their own custom way, because wayland only takes responsibility for a tiny fraction of the common things that every window manager does.

xani_ 4y ago
Maybe we should put a layer on top of wayland with all of the common stuff that DE uses funneled into common APIs. Like, all the eXtras DM needs We could call it X-Wayland
- ColonelPhantom 4y ago
  XWayland already exists and is the name for X.org running on Wayland, to enable X11 apps to run on Wayland desktops. You may be interested to learn about wl-roots though. It's a project that I think originated from sway, and it aims to provide most of the low-level plumbing for writing your own Wayland window manager/desktop environment.
  - xani_ 4y ago
    I know, twas a joke
    - kwhitefoot 4y ago
      But others, less well informed than you, probably don't know about XWayland so the response is quite helpful.
- IceWreck 4y ago
  You mean something like wlroots ? Sway made it initially but others are using it too. https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wlroots/wlroots https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wlroots/wlroots
kaba0 4y ago
Come on, it’s not like the linux user space was ever not fragmented. That’s sort of the deal with bazaar-style development. After enough time some best practices do solidify into standards, but it wasn’t overnight in X either, and first and foremost it wasn’t made with that in mind. Wayland has protocols which are queryable and provide a very good way of implementing more and more standard ones from the experimental “fragmented” ones, and I don’t see much problem with this model in practice either.
- ghosty141 4y ago
  And? Just because the linux ecosystem is fragmented doesn't mean that new software has to be, too. The fact that developing a new compositor with wayland basically required wlroots to be even feasable for a one-man project is concerning enough. The amount of stuff you have to handle is insane compared to writing your own x-wm.
  - customkitchen 4y ago
    That's not a good comparison because it would be even harder to write your own X server. And yet X is still extremely fragmented. And developing a new compositor also does not require wlroots. Originally there was libweston, wlroots is just another option.
    - account42 4y ago
      It is a good comparison because you don't need to write your own X server to implement your own window manager, which is the part that most people care about.
- destructionator 4y ago
  > After enough time some best practices do solidify into standards, but it wasn’t overnight in X either, and first and foremost it wasn’t made with that in mind. Part of what drives me nuts about Wayland is they could have learned these lessons from X's history and actually had it in mind. Instead, they threw it all out without learning a thing.
jshdheoshso 4y ago
- yunohn 4y ago
  > it's an infiltrated project. By whom… exactly?
  - sprash 4y ago
    Whoever wants to sabotage the Linux Desktop, or more precisely a community developed Linux Desktop. The biggest sponsors of GNOME are IBM and Google. Who knows what their agenda ist.
    - yunohn 4y ago
      You’re right, IBM & Google have teamed up to brainwash and secretly hire all the OSS developers for GNOME. Their goal is to stealthily undermine the Linux Desktop by implementing other half baked OSS tech in place of currently broken OSS tech, all while the public is bamboozled. /s just in case…
      - numeromancer 4y ago
        Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from conspiracy.
      - sprash 4y ago
        As somebody who witnessed the whole Microsoft "Helloween Documents" leak at the time I can assure you all kind of psyops are being pulled inside the more or less completely naive FOSS community. The observed practices outlined in the Helloween Documents were a "crazy conspiracy theory" first as well. Until it turned out to be a very real conspiracy.
- jorvi 4y ago
  > silly things … integrated menus on the window title bar You do realize this is one of the most lauded OS X features ever? It makes it so that whatever program your are using, you never have to dig in 4 places to figure out where the Settings or Print menu is.
kfajdsl 4y ago
I love GNOME (and currently still use it), but the project really has been taking a turn for the worse. If you want to do something even slightly off the happy path, GNOME is the worst Wayland experience. Because of ideology (and in the name of security), they refuse to implement features and extensions that users and app devs need. Example: No support for server side decorations. Instead, their solution is to force app devs to use client side decorations.(https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/1836 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/1836) This is just an issue that I have run into; there are more. Even ignoring wlroots and KWin, users coming from Windows and macOS except features like this.
- customkitchen 4y ago
  But GNOME has zero reason to implement server side decorations in Wayland. All GNOME apps use client side decorations and have done so for years. The other major toolkits (Qt and Electron) have also added support for client side decorations. Legacy X apps are still able to use the X decorations. The only thing left is apps that were broken in Wayland in the first place.
  - kfajdsl 4y ago
    Client side decorations are fine, but removing the option of server side decorations from app developers is stupid IMO. KDE and wlroots have this functionality. Practically, for small apps that don't really have their own style (or games that are just one big opengl window) it's much better to rely on the window manager to provide a titlebar that somewhat fit in with the rest of the system. This is what users expect when coming from Windows or macOS. Instead, apps like kitty just provide a godawful stopgap titlebar for GNOME users, because implementing good CSD is outside the scope of the project.

by gpm 4y ago

xani_ 4y ago

Maybe we should put a layer on top of wayland with all of the common stuff that DE uses funneled into common APIs. Like, all the eXtras DM needs We could call it X-Wayland

ColonelPhantom 4y ago
XWayland already exists and is the name for X.org running on Wayland, to enable X11 apps to run on Wayland desktops. You may be interested to learn about wl-roots though. It's a project that I think originated from sway, and it aims to provide most of the low-level plumbing for writing your own Wayland window manager/desktop environment.
- xani_ 4y ago
  I know, twas a joke
  - kwhitefoot 4y ago
    But others, less well informed than you, probably don't know about XWayland so the response is quite helpful.
IceWreck 4y ago
You mean something like wlroots ? Sway made it initially but others are using it too. https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wlroots/wlroots https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wlroots/wlroots

kaba0 4y ago

Come on, it’s not like the linux user space was ever not fragmented. That’s sort of the deal with bazaar-style development. After enough time some best practices do solidify into standards, but it wasn’t overnight in X either, and first and foremost it wasn’t made with that in mind. Wayland has protocols which are queryable and provide a very good way of implementing more and more standard ones from the experimental “fragmented” ones, and I don’t see much problem with this model in practice either.

ghosty141 4y ago
And? Just because the linux ecosystem is fragmented doesn't mean that new software has to be, too. The fact that developing a new compositor with wayland basically required wlroots to be even feasable for a one-man project is concerning enough. The amount of stuff you have to handle is insane compared to writing your own x-wm.
- customkitchen 4y ago
  That's not a good comparison because it would be even harder to write your own X server. And yet X is still extremely fragmented. And developing a new compositor also does not require wlroots. Originally there was libweston, wlroots is just another option.
  - account42 4y ago
    It is a good comparison because you don't need to write your own X server to implement your own window manager, which is the part that most people care about.
destructionator 4y ago
> After enough time some best practices do solidify into standards, but it wasn’t overnight in X either, and first and foremost it wasn’t made with that in mind. Part of what drives me nuts about Wayland is they could have learned these lessons from X's history and actually had it in mind. Instead, they threw it all out without learning a thing.

jshdheoshso 4y ago

yunohn 4y ago
> it's an infiltrated project. By whom… exactly?
- sprash 4y ago
  Whoever wants to sabotage the Linux Desktop, or more precisely a community developed Linux Desktop. The biggest sponsors of GNOME are IBM and Google. Who knows what their agenda ist.
  - yunohn 4y ago
    You’re right, IBM & Google have teamed up to brainwash and secretly hire all the OSS developers for GNOME. Their goal is to stealthily undermine the Linux Desktop by implementing other half baked OSS tech in place of currently broken OSS tech, all while the public is bamboozled. /s just in case…
    - numeromancer 4y ago
      Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from conspiracy.
    - sprash 4y ago
      As somebody who witnessed the whole Microsoft "Helloween Documents" leak at the time I can assure you all kind of psyops are being pulled inside the more or less completely naive FOSS community. The observed practices outlined in the Helloween Documents were a "crazy conspiracy theory" first as well. Until it turned out to be a very real conspiracy.
jorvi 4y ago
> silly things … integrated menus on the window title bar You do realize this is one of the most lauded OS X features ever? It makes it so that whatever program your are using, you never have to dig in 4 places to figure out where the Settings or Print menu is.

kfajdsl 4y ago

I love GNOME (and currently still use it), but the project really has been taking a turn for the worse. If you want to do something even slightly off the happy path, GNOME is the worst Wayland experience. Because of ideology (and in the name of security), they refuse to implement features and extensions that users and app devs need. Example: No support for server side decorations. Instead, their solution is to force app devs to use client side decorations.(https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/1836 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/1836) This is just an issue that I have run into; there are more. Even ignoring wlroots and KWin, users coming from Windows and macOS except features like this.

customkitchen 4y ago
But GNOME has zero reason to implement server side decorations in Wayland. All GNOME apps use client side decorations and have done so for years. The other major toolkits (Qt and Electron) have also added support for client side decorations. Legacy X apps are still able to use the X decorations. The only thing left is apps that were broken in Wayland in the first place.
- kfajdsl 4y ago
  Client side decorations are fine, but removing the option of server side decorations from app developers is stupid IMO. KDE and wlroots have this functionality. Practically, for small apps that don't really have their own style (or games that are just one big opengl window) it's much better to rely on the window manager to provide a titlebar that somewhat fit in with the rest of the system. This is what users expect when coming from Windows or macOS. Instead, apps like kitty just provide a godawful stopgap titlebar for GNOME users, because implementing good CSD is outside the scope of the project.