5 ms·

>There are valuable skills Depends on the business and the degree. They may be valuable, but they are not 500k usd valuable. >(particularly writing and commun

>There are valuable skills Depends on the business and the degree. They may be valuable, but they are not 500k usd valuable. >(particularly writing and communication) You should learn that in grade school.

Sakos 4y ago
- dang 4y ago
  Obviously you can't post like this here and obviously we have to ban accounts that do so, so please don't do it again—regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
woodruffw 4y ago
I think a vanishingly small fraction of liberal arts undergraduates are paying 500K USD for their degrees (even after you factor in all external costs), much less taking on that much in debt. (The rest of the comment is ridiculous -- it should be obvious that there is much more to learn about writing or communication than just what can be taught in grade school.)
- aortega 4y ago
  > it should be obvious that there is much more to learn about writing or communication Are those skills valuable enough to warrant a 500k usd loan? clearly not, or else they should have no problem repaying it.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    You still haven't substantiated that number. With regards to value: do you actually want to live in a society where the sole metric for human worth is one's predicted salary? That sounds miserable.
    - nightski 4y ago
      Last time I looked average student loan debt was around 30k. Not 500k. Yet we still hear all the time about how that is crippling. So much so that we need the taxpayer to come in and pay off all these loans for college graduates. So even at 30k it sounds like these degrees are not even adequate to pay off those loans. I wish we'd normalize furthering your education later in life after establishing a career and having more funds to do so. It should be less about advancing your career and more about improving and expanding oneself anytime in adulthood.
      - woodruffw 4y ago
        Thank you for responding with the actual number. Yes: even 30k in debt can be crippling, and there is a complex of macroeconomic pressures (like liberal arts jobs concentrating in HCOL areas) that make getting out from under that debt much more difficult than it otherwise would be. That being said, the solution is not to disincentivize people from getting liberal arts degrees. It's to just make college cheaper, the way every other developed nation does, and to ensure ample non-undergraduate career paths for anybody who is merely going to college because they're told "it's the thing to do." > I wish we'd normalize furthering your education later in life after establishing a career and having more funds to do so. I agree completely!
  - giaour 4y ago
    I have heard of six figure student debt, but only in the context of recent graduates of MD, JD, and MBA programs (all of which are very expensive and generally lead to lucrative careers). Have you ever actually heard of someone who amassed $500K in student debt to get an undergraduate degree?
endisneigh 4y ago
which schools cost $500K USD?
- topkai22 4y ago
  Columbia is $85k/ year. Do 4 years undergrad plus a 2 year masters and you are past $500k. I’m sure people get in to that much debt, but it’s going to be rare. The largest number I’ve known of personally is $320k from undergrad, law school, and an MIS.
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    $85K is the sticker price at Columbia. Very few people actually pay that much, let alone take out loans for 500K. Sad how fake info is the top thread at HN. In particular Columbia will never make you take out loans: https://cc-seas.financialaid.columbia.edu/how/aid/works https://cc-seas.financialaid.columbia.edu/how/aid/works. The kind of people who would get zero aid from Columbia would be very unlikely to be taking out loans to begin with.
jakelazaroff 4y ago
> You should learn that in grade school. Do you really think it’s reasonable to expect eleven year olds to write and communicate at the same level as a fully grown adult?
6stringmerc 4y ago
Apparently very useful degrees lead to the highly satisfying career of barely living wages as a post-doc with limited job security and work life balance, but do preach on about how useful the existing system is because $500k jobs are in finance and oil and gas, not STEM.
RHSeeger 4y ago
Nobody learns professional level writing and communication in grade school. There is a huge margin between "can convey information in writing" and "is skilled at conveying information efficiently in writing".
- namelessoracle 4y ago
  Minimum page requirements for essays and papers dont reinforce brevity in writing. They do the opposite, a way to be flower-y and add cruft. Minimum page requirements are often the bulk of your grade in non stem. If you wrote the minimum pages, followed the style guide given to you, used mostly correct English, and followed citation guides. You will get a passing grade. It encourages finding a bunch of sources that back up your point ad nauseam, and paraphrase them repeatedly.
  - jakelazaroff 4y ago
    Do you have a source for this? Because, anecdotally, I know a lot of teachers and professors and none of them grade that way.
    - namelessoracle 4y ago
      My source is "going to college" and "seeing what my peers wrote" when they asked me to help them proof read, and me seeing my paper get a 100, and their paper getting 70 despite being nonsense. (because the grading rubric rewards heavily following the process) I am sure that you have watched a teacher grade 50+ 10 page papers in the span of a week and heard their rational behind each grade though. Having graded some of those papers when being a TA, its all about the rubric, not the content, and most of the rubric is stuff like "Did they follow formatting rules? Did they hit page requirement? Did they have correct citations? Did they follow citation format?" Because not having a space in the wrong place during their works cited page is super important, but writing utter nonsense? Eh. Stuff like "the content" is sometimes low as 10 points on the paper. Usually about 20.

Sakos 4y ago

dang 4y ago
Obviously you can't post like this here and obviously we have to ban accounts that do so, so please don't do it again—regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

woodruffw 4y ago

I think a vanishingly small fraction of liberal arts undergraduates are paying 500K USD for their degrees (even after you factor in all external costs), much less taking on that much in debt. (The rest of the comment is ridiculous -- it should be obvious that there is much more to learn about writing or communication than just what can be taught in grade school.)

aortega 4y ago
> it should be obvious that there is much more to learn about writing or communication Are those skills valuable enough to warrant a 500k usd loan? clearly not, or else they should have no problem repaying it.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  You still haven't substantiated that number. With regards to value: do you actually want to live in a society where the sole metric for human worth is one's predicted salary? That sounds miserable.
  - nightski 4y ago
    Last time I looked average student loan debt was around 30k. Not 500k. Yet we still hear all the time about how that is crippling. So much so that we need the taxpayer to come in and pay off all these loans for college graduates. So even at 30k it sounds like these degrees are not even adequate to pay off those loans. I wish we'd normalize furthering your education later in life after establishing a career and having more funds to do so. It should be less about advancing your career and more about improving and expanding oneself anytime in adulthood.
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      Thank you for responding with the actual number. Yes: even 30k in debt can be crippling, and there is a complex of macroeconomic pressures (like liberal arts jobs concentrating in HCOL areas) that make getting out from under that debt much more difficult than it otherwise would be. That being said, the solution is not to disincentivize people from getting liberal arts degrees. It's to just make college cheaper, the way every other developed nation does, and to ensure ample non-undergraduate career paths for anybody who is merely going to college because they're told "it's the thing to do." > I wish we'd normalize furthering your education later in life after establishing a career and having more funds to do so. I agree completely!
- giaour 4y ago
  I have heard of six figure student debt, but only in the context of recent graduates of MD, JD, and MBA programs (all of which are very expensive and generally lead to lucrative careers). Have you ever actually heard of someone who amassed $500K in student debt to get an undergraduate degree?

endisneigh 4y ago

which schools cost $500K USD?

topkai22 4y ago
Columbia is $85k/ year. Do 4 years undergrad plus a 2 year masters and you are past $500k. I’m sure people get in to that much debt, but it’s going to be rare. The largest number I’ve known of personally is $320k from undergrad, law school, and an MIS.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  $85K is the sticker price at Columbia. Very few people actually pay that much, let alone take out loans for 500K. Sad how fake info is the top thread at HN. In particular Columbia will never make you take out loans: https://cc-seas.financialaid.columbia.edu/how/aid/works https://cc-seas.financialaid.columbia.edu/how/aid/works. The kind of people who would get zero aid from Columbia would be very unlikely to be taking out loans to begin with.

jakelazaroff 4y ago

> You should learn that in grade school. Do you really think it’s reasonable to expect eleven year olds to write and communicate at the same level as a fully grown adult?

6stringmerc 4y ago

Apparently very useful degrees lead to the highly satisfying career of barely living wages as a post-doc with limited job security and work life balance, but do preach on about how useful the existing system is because $500k jobs are in finance and oil and gas, not STEM.

RHSeeger 4y ago

Nobody learns professional level writing and communication in grade school. There is a huge margin between "can convey information in writing" and "is skilled at conveying information efficiently in writing".

namelessoracle 4y ago
Minimum page requirements for essays and papers dont reinforce brevity in writing. They do the opposite, a way to be flower-y and add cruft. Minimum page requirements are often the bulk of your grade in non stem. If you wrote the minimum pages, followed the style guide given to you, used mostly correct English, and followed citation guides. You will get a passing grade. It encourages finding a bunch of sources that back up your point ad nauseam, and paraphrase them repeatedly.
- jakelazaroff 4y ago
  Do you have a source for this? Because, anecdotally, I know a lot of teachers and professors and none of them grade that way.
  - namelessoracle 4y ago
    My source is "going to college" and "seeing what my peers wrote" when they asked me to help them proof read, and me seeing my paper get a 100, and their paper getting 70 despite being nonsense. (because the grading rubric rewards heavily following the process) I am sure that you have watched a teacher grade 50+ 10 page papers in the span of a week and heard their rational behind each grade though. Having graded some of those papers when being a TA, its all about the rubric, not the content, and most of the rubric is stuff like "Did they follow formatting rules? Did they hit page requirement? Did they have correct citations? Did they follow citation format?" Because not having a space in the wrong place during their works cited page is super important, but writing utter nonsense? Eh. Stuff like "the content" is sometimes low as 10 points on the paper. Usually about 20.