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The federal government needs to get out of the college loan business. The government needs to either pay for college (like they do for K-12) or GTFO out. The p

The federal government needs to get out of the college loan business. The government needs to either pay for college (like they do for K-12) or GTFO out. The problem with college is it's too expensive. The government has done nothing to make it cheaper. Their backing and forgiveness of student loans only makes it more expensive. It's infuriating. All the government needs to do is literally nothing. Just get out of the way!

armada651 4y ago
The problem with doing nothing is that college defaults to a system where it is simply not affordable for a significant section of the population. The system in the US is for sure flawed, but doing nothing and letting the market decide will not solve the social equity problem either.
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  The solution given is to create cheap public universities, not do nothing. It would bring prices down instead of up... which is what doling out pallets of money does.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> All the government needs to do is literally nothing. Just get out of the way! If the government gets out of the way everywhere, the class system and caste system will be back withing 3 months People think free market capitalism is the natural - thats just propaganda. Feudalism is natural, thats why it existed for 10 thousand years.
- forrestthewoods 4y ago
  It's a good thing I didn't propose they get out of the way everywhere. I also suggested the government could simply pay for college directly. The loan model is the worst of both worlds.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    > I also suggested the government could simply pay for college directly. It's just the best investment we could make. We wouldn't have to worry that anyone's potential got wasted if everyone could easily go to college, and people could switch careers more easily. It would just raise the general competence level of the population and probably instantly start lowering crime. Skilled people without crippling debt. We should do socialized healthcare and make them healthy, too.
- antisthenes 4y ago
  The first part of your argument is true, but the 2nd hyperbolic one is factually false and detracts from the first. Consider phrasing it differently.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    I am sorry, I don't understand whas is it you believe - if you agree part 1 is true, and class system will be back, how can you disbelieve that Feudalism will be back? A class system is the defining feature of feudalism - if you are born into a class and may never escape, and if higher classes have more legal priviliges than you do, thats no longer capitalism we know and love/hate/tolerate.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - hither_shores 4y ago
      Feudalism, to the extent that it's a coherent concept at all, refers to a particular form of social organization prominent in medieval Europe. It is not a catch-all for all premodern societies.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- throw_m239339 4y ago
  > If the government gets out of the way everywhere, the class system and caste system will be back withing 3 months The class system is already there. Not everybody can go to Harvard or all the elite colleges. So what are you talking about exactly? If the government wants poor people to go to college, then the government needs to give scholarships to these people, not loans that can't be done away through bankruptcy, let's the banks take all the risks, that's their job.
secabeen 4y ago
The federal government doesn't generally pay for education. That's state and local dollars, mostly. The states do pay for education, but during and after the 08 recession (and generally during the 70s-90s too), they have cut funding for higher ed, to put more into k-12 and tax cuts: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-main-reason-tuition-is-skyrocketing/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-m... Cuts in state support are balanced by tuition increases; expenses on a per-student basis are not up anywhere near what tuition has increased by.
- forrestthewoods 4y ago
  The 538 article is six years old, it’d be interesting to see an update. It does call out the decreased funding isn’t why private colleges have also grown in cost.
  - secabeen 4y ago
    Agreed. I would like to see an update. The private colleges have increased their tuition on an inflation adjusted level at a pretty linear rate (See Figure CP-3 on #1). It's the public Four Year institutions that made the big increases, both correlated with the 01-03 recession, and the 08-09 recession. Since 2014, nameplate public institution tuition has been largely flat (same figure). Additionally, net tuition at 4-year publics actually paid by students has been almost flat or down over the last 15 years (see Figure CP-9 in #10), with net tuition plus room/board up slightly, due to increases in rent not fully controlled by colleges (same figure). The same applies at private non-profits, flat to negative net tuition, and a moderate increase in tuition+room/board (Figure CP-10 in #1). The answer is very clear. When states cut funding per FTE student, tuition rises to compensate. When state funding is flat or slightly up, tuition stays level (Figure CP-11A in #1). All citations from #1, the best data source I know of for college tuition pricing data: https://research.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/trends-college-pricing-student-aid-2021.pdf https://research.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/trends-college-p... If you want to look at it on the expenditures side, which should balance with revenue for non-profits, that data is here, and also shows moderate increases in spending: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d20/tables/dt20_334.10.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d20/tables/dt20_334.10.a...
throw_m239339 4y ago
100% Agreed. The whole government backed collage loan system is the very thing that made the price of college education go out of control. The government either needs to stay away from that system or just give plain scholarships for students from modest economic backgrounds.

armada651 4y ago

The problem with doing nothing is that college defaults to a system where it is simply not affordable for a significant section of the population. The system in the US is for sure flawed, but doing nothing and letting the market decide will not solve the social equity problem either.

mixmastamyk 4y ago
The solution given is to create cheap public universities, not do nothing. It would bring prices down instead of up... which is what doling out pallets of money does.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

> All the government needs to do is literally nothing. Just get out of the way! If the government gets out of the way everywhere, the class system and caste system will be back withing 3 months People think free market capitalism is the natural - thats just propaganda. Feudalism is natural, thats why it existed for 10 thousand years.

forrestthewoods 4y ago
It's a good thing I didn't propose they get out of the way everywhere. I also suggested the government could simply pay for college directly. The loan model is the worst of both worlds.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  > I also suggested the government could simply pay for college directly. It's just the best investment we could make. We wouldn't have to worry that anyone's potential got wasted if everyone could easily go to college, and people could switch careers more easily. It would just raise the general competence level of the population and probably instantly start lowering crime. Skilled people without crippling debt. We should do socialized healthcare and make them healthy, too.
antisthenes 4y ago
The first part of your argument is true, but the 2nd hyperbolic one is factually false and detracts from the first. Consider phrasing it differently.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  I am sorry, I don't understand whas is it you believe - if you agree part 1 is true, and class system will be back, how can you disbelieve that Feudalism will be back? A class system is the defining feature of feudalism - if you are born into a class and may never escape, and if higher classes have more legal priviliges than you do, thats no longer capitalism we know and love/hate/tolerate.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - hither_shores 4y ago
    Feudalism, to the extent that it's a coherent concept at all, refers to a particular form of social organization prominent in medieval Europe. It is not a catch-all for all premodern societies.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
throw_m239339 4y ago
> If the government gets out of the way everywhere, the class system and caste system will be back withing 3 months The class system is already there. Not everybody can go to Harvard or all the elite colleges. So what are you talking about exactly? If the government wants poor people to go to college, then the government needs to give scholarships to these people, not loans that can't be done away through bankruptcy, let's the banks take all the risks, that's their job.

secabeen 4y ago

The federal government doesn't generally pay for education. That's state and local dollars, mostly. The states do pay for education, but during and after the 08 recession (and generally during the 70s-90s too), they have cut funding for higher ed, to put more into k-12 and tax cuts: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-main-reason-tuition-is-skyrocketing/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-m... Cuts in state support are balanced by tuition increases; expenses on a per-student basis are not up anywhere near what tuition has increased by.

forrestthewoods 4y ago
The 538 article is six years old, it’d be interesting to see an update. It does call out the decreased funding isn’t why private colleges have also grown in cost.
- secabeen 4y ago
  Agreed. I would like to see an update. The private colleges have increased their tuition on an inflation adjusted level at a pretty linear rate (See Figure CP-3 on #1). It's the public Four Year institutions that made the big increases, both correlated with the 01-03 recession, and the 08-09 recession. Since 2014, nameplate public institution tuition has been largely flat (same figure). Additionally, net tuition at 4-year publics actually paid by students has been almost flat or down over the last 15 years (see Figure CP-9 in #10), with net tuition plus room/board up slightly, due to increases in rent not fully controlled by colleges (same figure). The same applies at private non-profits, flat to negative net tuition, and a moderate increase in tuition+room/board (Figure CP-10 in #1). The answer is very clear. When states cut funding per FTE student, tuition rises to compensate. When state funding is flat or slightly up, tuition stays level (Figure CP-11A in #1). All citations from #1, the best data source I know of for college tuition pricing data: https://research.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/trends-college-pricing-student-aid-2021.pdf https://research.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/trends-college-p... If you want to look at it on the expenditures side, which should balance with revenue for non-profits, that data is here, and also shows moderate increases in spending: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d20/tables/dt20_334.10.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d20/tables/dt20_334.10.a...

throw_m239339 4y ago

100% Agreed. The whole government backed collage loan system is the very thing that made the price of college education go out of control. The government either needs to stay away from that system or just give plain scholarships for students from modest economic backgrounds.