6 ms·

this really punches a hole in the idea that "if you're not the customer, you're the product"

by cowtools 4y ago

daptaq 4y ago
To be fair, you can't deduce "A -> ~B" from "A -> B". You can be the customer and the product.
- cowtools 4y ago
  But doesn't it imply that the only way to not be the product is to be the customer? In this case, we see that being the customer is insufficient to not be the product.
  - sneak 4y ago
    No, the only way to not be the product is to not provide PII to big tech, or their downstreams that immediately shuttle your PII to big tech.
    - tsimionescu 4y ago
      Advertising doesn't technically need PII, any kind of II is enough (PII typically refers to things like your name or face or address).
      - sneak 4y ago
        Every app these days requires your unique and unchanging advertising identifier to log in. You can’t get an Apple ID or Google account, or order a pizza or make a dinner reservation without it. You might know it as your phone number.
  - daptaq 4y ago
    No, being a product or a customer stand in no relation to one another. You can be neither, either, or both. If you don't want to be a product, you have to work on that, not on being a better customer.
kibwen 4y ago
It doesn't punch a hole in it. If P implies Q, that doesn't mean the inverse of P implies the inverse of Q. If you're not the customer, you're the product. But if you are the customer, well, sometimes you're still the product.
- cowtools 4y ago
  Sometimes you are neither the customer nor the product. (e.g. a service like wikpedia or a project like linux) I think the context in which the phrase "if you're not the customer, you're the product" is often used implies that we should upgrade our relationship by paying, however this is not necessarily the case as shown here.
- tshaddox 4y ago
  It certainly diminishes the usefulness of the rule of thumb if you add “and you’re still the product anyway even if you’re paying” to the end of it.
  - chucksmash 4y ago
    Cogito ergo productum
    - tsimionescu 4y ago
      "Cogito ergo product sum" (I think therefore I am the product) would be closer to the original and more slightly-Latin-like.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    It doesn't help you not get screwed, but at least now you know why you're getting screwed. That's better than nothing.
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    It was a dumb rule from the start. You paid for newspapers and still had ads in them, paid nothing for linux and was nothing part of the product.
matheusmoreira 4y ago
You're always the product unless you're using freedom respecting hardware and software. If you're a customer, it just means you paid for the privilege of being someone else's product.
- cowtools 4y ago
  You're not the customer or the product: you're the developer.
  - matheusmoreira 4y ago
    Okay. I'd rather be the developer than the product.
seydor 4y ago
You re the customer, and the product
yissp 4y ago
Newspapers, magazines, cable TV, product placement in films, ... even if you're paying you can definitely still be the product.

this really punches a hole in the idea that "if you're not the customer, you're the product"

daptaq 4y ago

To be fair, you can't deduce "A -> ~B" from "A -> B". You can be the customer and the product.

cowtools 4y ago
But doesn't it imply that the only way to not be the product is to be the customer? In this case, we see that being the customer is insufficient to not be the product.
- sneak 4y ago
  No, the only way to not be the product is to not provide PII to big tech, or their downstreams that immediately shuttle your PII to big tech.
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    Advertising doesn't technically need PII, any kind of II is enough (PII typically refers to things like your name or face or address).
    - sneak 4y ago
      Every app these days requires your unique and unchanging advertising identifier to log in. You can’t get an Apple ID or Google account, or order a pizza or make a dinner reservation without it. You might know it as your phone number.
- daptaq 4y ago
  No, being a product or a customer stand in no relation to one another. You can be neither, either, or both. If you don't want to be a product, you have to work on that, not on being a better customer.

kibwen 4y ago

It doesn't punch a hole in it. If P implies Q, that doesn't mean the inverse of P implies the inverse of Q. If you're not the customer, you're the product. But if you are the customer, well, sometimes you're still the product.

cowtools 4y ago
Sometimes you are neither the customer nor the product. (e.g. a service like wikpedia or a project like linux) I think the context in which the phrase "if you're not the customer, you're the product" is often used implies that we should upgrade our relationship by paying, however this is not necessarily the case as shown here.
tshaddox 4y ago
It certainly diminishes the usefulness of the rule of thumb if you add “and you’re still the product anyway even if you’re paying” to the end of it.
- chucksmash 4y ago
  Cogito ergo productum
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    "Cogito ergo product sum" (I think therefore I am the product) would be closer to the original and more slightly-Latin-like.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  It doesn't help you not get screwed, but at least now you know why you're getting screwed. That's better than nothing.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  It was a dumb rule from the start. You paid for newspapers and still had ads in them, paid nothing for linux and was nothing part of the product.

matheusmoreira 4y ago

You're always the product unless you're using freedom respecting hardware and software. If you're a customer, it just means you paid for the privilege of being someone else's product.

cowtools 4y ago
You're not the customer or the product: you're the developer.
- matheusmoreira 4y ago
  Okay. I'd rather be the developer than the product.

seydor 4y ago

You re the customer, and the product

yissp 4y ago

Newspapers, magazines, cable TV, product placement in films, ... even if you're paying you can definitely still be the product.