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As a motorbike rider myself, I find this terrible. It obviously makes the whole bike more expensive as you have to integrate all the hardware, which can break d

As a motorbike rider myself, I find this terrible. It obviously makes the whole bike more expensive as you have to integrate all the hardware, which can break down although you might have never used it. Isn't BMW going to do something like that with its cars, too? A question that might arise from that: Say I don't use/buy a specific feature for the first X years and want to have it enabled after that. It then turns out that the hardware required for that is broken. Who's liable for that and has to pay? In a classical scenario, I'd have sth. like a two year warranty on the newly integrated parts, but as those parts were integrated for the X years I've already owned the car/bike and the defect has just come up as they were activated now...

avalys 4y ago
It's not really clear that this makes the whole bike more expensive. Most of the expense for features like this is in the design and engineering, not raw parts costs. Shipping all the bikes with the same hardware but enabling options in software might actually make the base bike less expensive than if they had to design and manufacture two different physical configurations.
- martin_a 4y ago
  > Most of the expense for features like this is in the design and engineering, not raw parts costs. [...] might actually make the base bike less expensive Yeah, I'm not sure about that. BMW wants to integrate heated seats in all models and only activate them through a subscription, if I remember correctly. While that might streamline production and therefore lead to optimizations, I doubt that those will be passed on to the customer. But you now have more servicable parts, weight etc. pp. in ALL models with a chance that they break... We've played enough of the capitalism game to know that this is not about the customer and a better price for him.
  - ce4 4y ago
    I agree with your last sentence - but i doubt that the baseline price will be that much higher via added parts like heated grips (it's just a flexcable/flexible PCB under the rubber hand grip + external wiring). The gearshift lever sensor (piezo electric module) should also not be too expensive. The expensive parts are the electronics sourced from 3rd party vendors (eg. the 6 axle IMU to enable cornering ABS, traction control, anti-wheelie control and so on which I guess is mostly sourced from Bosch, or the emission control). And of course meeting and proving conformance to all the regulation
    - martin_a 4y ago
      Adding heated grips to a BMW F 850 GS is only possible by adding the "Active" package, which comes at 445 Euro. That also includes new driving modes and a baseplate for luggage, to be fair. Nevertheless there's a hefty price tag for adding anything, before even buying/building the bike. If I was a motorbike company I'd not cut my margin on things like these.
  - avalys 4y ago
    Heated seats are a great example. How much does a resistive heating element and some connectors cost? What are you worried about "breaking" if you're not using the heated seats in the first place? Do you have heated seats in your car right now? Go under your seat and and unplug the connector and tell me what happens. Nothing... > We've played enough of the capitalism game to know that this is not about the customer and a better price for him. Go drive a Mercedes S-Class from 1992 and a Toyota Camry from 2022 and tell me how capitalism isn't resulting in lower prices for the customer.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - martin_a 4y ago
      > How much does a resistive heating element and some connectors cost? Probably 25 Euro, but that's not what anybody is paying for it. See the other comment, heated grips for a BMW motorbike cost 445 Euro and they only come in a nonsense-bundle to disguise the actual cost. What do you think will happen once cars are changing into "feature as a service"-platform? Enabling the car to have heated seats via a subscription will surely rise the base price more than 25 Euro. > Go drive a Mercedes S-Class from 1992 and a Toyota Camry from 2022 and tell me how capitalism isn't resulting in lower prices for the customer. What kind of shitty comparison is this supposed to be? Comparing a 30 year old high-class limousine to a current middle-class car? What's next? Comparing the Commodore C64 to the latest iPhone and blaming the C64 for its poor Bluetooth connectivity?
      - mechanical_bear 4y ago
        I mean…yeah the iPhone is a great example and the fact that you brought up that as an example shows that you are really close to getting it.
        antman 4y ago
        Your example did not make sense to me either so I cannot comment, sorry. If you want to "get it" about the IPhone though this article might help: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/12/phone-state-private-sector-products-investment-innovation https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/12/phone-...
ce4 4y ago
I think it's the other way around. It makes the bike's base-model cheaper (and KTM hopes that everyone checks all the upgrade boxes or they make the upgrade sales in the aftermarket e.g. 2nd or 3rd owner onwards). Counter example: the KTM 790 Duke for example was too cheap (had most upgrades already built-in), and subsequently was replaced by the 890. You can see it with used-790's prices - the used motorcycle market is nuts anyway at the moment (with all the emission requirements, compulsory ABS etc adding weight and reducing power on current models. While i dont disagree with those regulations, the market makes a statement via used motorcycle prices for older models).

avalys 4y ago

It's not really clear that this makes the whole bike more expensive. Most of the expense for features like this is in the design and engineering, not raw parts costs. Shipping all the bikes with the same hardware but enabling options in software might actually make the base bike less expensive than if they had to design and manufacture two different physical configurations.

martin_a 4y ago
> Most of the expense for features like this is in the design and engineering, not raw parts costs. [...] might actually make the base bike less expensive Yeah, I'm not sure about that. BMW wants to integrate heated seats in all models and only activate them through a subscription, if I remember correctly. While that might streamline production and therefore lead to optimizations, I doubt that those will be passed on to the customer. But you now have more servicable parts, weight etc. pp. in ALL models with a chance that they break... We've played enough of the capitalism game to know that this is not about the customer and a better price for him.
- ce4 4y ago
  I agree with your last sentence - but i doubt that the baseline price will be that much higher via added parts like heated grips (it's just a flexcable/flexible PCB under the rubber hand grip + external wiring). The gearshift lever sensor (piezo electric module) should also not be too expensive. The expensive parts are the electronics sourced from 3rd party vendors (eg. the 6 axle IMU to enable cornering ABS, traction control, anti-wheelie control and so on which I guess is mostly sourced from Bosch, or the emission control). And of course meeting and proving conformance to all the regulation
  - martin_a 4y ago
    Adding heated grips to a BMW F 850 GS is only possible by adding the "Active" package, which comes at 445 Euro. That also includes new driving modes and a baseplate for luggage, to be fair. Nevertheless there's a hefty price tag for adding anything, before even buying/building the bike. If I was a motorbike company I'd not cut my margin on things like these.
- avalys 4y ago
  Heated seats are a great example. How much does a resistive heating element and some connectors cost? What are you worried about "breaking" if you're not using the heated seats in the first place? Do you have heated seats in your car right now? Go under your seat and and unplug the connector and tell me what happens. Nothing... > We've played enough of the capitalism game to know that this is not about the customer and a better price for him. Go drive a Mercedes S-Class from 1992 and a Toyota Camry from 2022 and tell me how capitalism isn't resulting in lower prices for the customer.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - martin_a 4y ago
    > How much does a resistive heating element and some connectors cost? Probably 25 Euro, but that's not what anybody is paying for it. See the other comment, heated grips for a BMW motorbike cost 445 Euro and they only come in a nonsense-bundle to disguise the actual cost. What do you think will happen once cars are changing into "feature as a service"-platform? Enabling the car to have heated seats via a subscription will surely rise the base price more than 25 Euro. > Go drive a Mercedes S-Class from 1992 and a Toyota Camry from 2022 and tell me how capitalism isn't resulting in lower prices for the customer. What kind of shitty comparison is this supposed to be? Comparing a 30 year old high-class limousine to a current middle-class car? What's next? Comparing the Commodore C64 to the latest iPhone and blaming the C64 for its poor Bluetooth connectivity?
    - mechanical_bear 4y ago
      I mean…yeah the iPhone is a great example and the fact that you brought up that as an example shows that you are really close to getting it.
      - antman 4y ago
        Your example did not make sense to me either so I cannot comment, sorry. If you want to "get it" about the IPhone though this article might help: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/12/phone-state-private-sector-products-investment-innovation https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/12/phone-...

ce4 4y ago

I think it's the other way around. It makes the bike's base-model cheaper (and KTM hopes that everyone checks all the upgrade boxes or they make the upgrade sales in the aftermarket e.g. 2nd or 3rd owner onwards). Counter example: the KTM 790 Duke for example was too cheap (had most upgrades already built-in), and subsequently was replaced by the 890. You can see it with used-790's prices - the used motorcycle market is nuts anyway at the moment (with all the emission requirements, compulsory ABS etc adding weight and reducing power on current models. While i dont disagree with those regulations, the market makes a statement via used motorcycle prices for older models).