4 ms·

They're coming after in-game chat. Microsoft is already participating in this inevitable crackdown, with the recent snitchware changes they made to Minecraft.

They're coming after in-game chat. Microsoft is already participating in this inevitable crackdown, with the recent snitchware changes they made to Minecraft. Microsoft is tight with the US federal government. I know some gamers wondered where Microsoft's firm insistence on chat reporting in Minecraft came from; the game became a runaway success without such a system and there were no major media scandals that seemed to prompt this change of attitude or priorities. I think this is the answer. There is a general push in the government and big tech corps (the line grows fuzzier by the year, a hallmark of fascism...) to consolidate and centralize control of digital discourse so it can be monitored and moderated by them.

paulcole 4y ago
> They're coming after in-game chat. Great! In my opinion, there should be no expectation that you can say whatever you want in in-game chat. Edit: I don’t understand the downvotes here.
- alexvoda 4y ago
  In a private chat with a private group on a private server would you still not have that expectation? The change Microsoft made to Minecraft applies globally and once you are banned you are banned everywhere including all private servers.
  - paulcole 4y ago
    Yes, that’s still what I believe.
    - tastyfreeze 4y ago
      Do you not believe in your right to privacy? Or put another way, do you believe the government should know all your private conversations?
      - paulcole 4y ago
        I don’t believe the government should know all my private conversations without due process. But I also don’t believe my in-game chat is a private conversation.
        tastyfreeze 4y ago
        A communication service provided by a company is no different than a room in a physical building. The government cannot "bug" a privately owned room without a warrant. Tech companies have granted the government freedom to "bug" all of their digital rooms. I long ago gave up on the idea that online communication is ever private. The FBI started recording all internet traffic in 1997 with Carnivore after all. But I do believe it should be private and require a warrant for the government to see. There are just too many bad things that can come from government monitoring all communications. The government shouldn't get a pass just because we haven't quite figured out how our rights apply in a digital space.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - manuelmoreale 4y ago
      If it’s a private instance of a server, run by you where the only people on it are you and your friends, shouldn’t be up to you and the other people to figure out what is and what isn’t appropriate to say? Why should you care about what the company who made the game have to say?
      - paulcole 4y ago
        > Why should you care about what the company who made the game have to say? Because it’s their game and I want to play it.
        manuelmoreale 4y ago
        Yes but a chat content between you and your friend is no longer part of their game.
        paulcole 4y ago
        My original comment was specifically about in-game chat which is most definitely still part of their game.
        manuelmoreale 4y ago
        Yes but "in game" on a private server run by you means a chat between you and your friends. That's why I find it puzzling that you'd think that a company has the right to police that kind of content. When it's public and you're interacting with strangers makes total sense but on private servers?
        paulcole 4y ago
        But regardless of public/private, it’s still in their game right? They’re not banning me for the text messages I send or what I say in a Slack channel right? It’s their game, their chat system, and their decision.
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago
      And perhaps the company that build your house or apartment building should install microphones in the walls, with a term in the dense sales contract / TOS that forbids modification of course. After all, you could be muttering hate speech in your living room, ahem, I mean their living room. They built it after all, so clearly it's rightfully theirs even if its ostensibly your property...
      - KennyBlanken 4y ago
        Minecraft having a message reporting system in a publicly playable game run by a game studio, and a team of people who decide what to do with those reports, has nothing to do with "microphones installed in the walls of people's homes." You've gone from misreprsenting things to suit your worldview (like you did in your initial message claiming "snitchware." Nothing in minecraft's moderation system is automatic - content must be flagged, first, by another user) to wildly unhinged "analogies."
        bendbro 4y ago
        Company A builds Apartment Building. Company B builds game server software. Company A sells Apartment Building to Landlord. Company B sells software to Server Admin. Landlord leases Apartment to Leaser. Server Admin allows Gamer to connect to Server Software. Microphones installed by Company A in Apartment's walls catch Leaser saying Bad Word. Chat spy installed by Company B in Server Software catches Gamer saying Bad Word. Company A bans Leaser from all Apartment Buildings they constructed. Company B bans Gamer from all Server Software they leased out. Point to where this analogy is weak.
        jjj123 4y ago
        Housing is a human need, gaming is not. That’s why there are tons of regulations around housing that don’t apply to other industries. Not saying I disagree with your overall point, but the analogy is weak.
        4y ago
  - KennyBlanken 4y ago
    From the FAQ: https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/article/moderating-minecraft https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/article/moderating-minecraft > So, what’s new? Minecraft moderators may ban players who do not follow our Community Guidelines when sending online messages using our services (Realms) or Featured Servers, and communicating online through signposts and books. If you conduct yourself such that you manage to get banned from hosted / promoted servers, I have no problem with you being unable to participate in privately run servers. Nobody wants to be around people who act like that. Furthermore, action only comes about from player reports - contrary to the grandparent comment's misrepresentations about "snitchware" and so on, Minecraft moderator action can only come about from player reports - and only in certain specific, defined categories. There is no "right" to free speech in a private game. There is no "right" to play a private game.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  If you're hosting a game server on your own computer, Microsoft shouldn't get to censor you and your friends while you're playing on it.
  - KennyBlanken 4y ago
    They don't. Moderators can only receive reports from Realms and featured servers. If you get banned for bad behavior on those servers, then yes, you get banned from minecraft, period.
    - josephcsible 4y ago
      > Moderation only applies to Realms and featured servers. I don't think this is true. In particular, note that it's useful to install https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/no-chat-reports https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/no-chat-reports on regular servers.
    - DoItToMe81 4y ago
      Both chat reporting and bans were extended to LAN, effectively cutting people off from the product they've bought. The context of the messages beyond a certain point aren't sent, so kids are already bullying other kids into cracking and reporting them. It has got to the point where modders are actively warning people against the report system. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/06/microsoft-will-start-banning-players-from-all-private-minecraft-servers/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/06/microsoft-will-start-... https://fabulously-optimized.gitbook.io/modpack/readme/chat-reporting-faq https://fabulously-optimized.gitbook.io/modpack/readme/chat-...
- melony 4y ago
  Just found the Gen Z
- gamblor956 4y ago
  There's a large segment of HN that doesn't get the same abuse online that women or minorities get so they think that everything digital should be a free-for-all, so you're getting downvoted by them for supporting moderation of publicly accessible online spaces. I agree with you. There is no expectation that someone should be able to say whatever they want in in-game chat. If people really want to do that, they're free to create their own game and accompanying chat infrastructure.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    > If people really want to do that, they're free to create their own game and accompanying chat infrastructure. The reason that what Microsoft did is so horrendous is that they're banning people from the chat infrastructure that individual servers owners are running themselves. Or are you saying that if you don't want to be censored, it's not enough that you run your own chat server, but that you write all of the code from scratch for it too?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
aeturnum 4y ago
> I know some gamers wondered where Microsoft's firm insistence on chat reporting in Minecraft came from; the game became a runaway success without such a system and there were no major media scandals that seemed to prompt this change of attitude or priorities This comments suggests a profound ignorance of the realities online services. I've seen a lot of doubt that the Minecraft chat monitoring system is actually catching bad people and may, largely, be used to ban people for innocuous online mischief. If that's true, it's a shame and a black mark on Microsoft - but it's irresponsible to run around pretending that abusers are not trying to use these platforms to get to people. I have not seen a collection of incidents in minecraft, but there was a good article posted on HN covering some of the issues Roblox has in this area[1]. I assume that, if one goes through collected Minecraft chats, there's some pretty concerning content in there. I assume that because I've been playing online games for years and I've always encountered concerning content. There are no perfect solutions, but it seems obvious that we can do better than no safety net at all and have an obligation to try. That means we should both push back on flawed, un-neuanced systems like this new one in Minecraft and on lazy critiques of the attempt that pretend there is no problem. If you think that online spaces are a goodness and an important part of life, then I think you need to take seriously the need to setup controls that will let children and other vulnerable people use those spaces with greater safety while minimally restricting adults. It's not an easy problem at all, and as you note the authorities often start with a digital surveillance state, so we all have to be the change we wanna see in the world and advocate for solutions that are better for all the stakeholders. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32014754 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32014754

paulcole 4y ago

> They're coming after in-game chat. Great! In my opinion, there should be no expectation that you can say whatever you want in in-game chat. Edit: I don’t understand the downvotes here.

alexvoda 4y ago
In a private chat with a private group on a private server would you still not have that expectation? The change Microsoft made to Minecraft applies globally and once you are banned you are banned everywhere including all private servers.
- paulcole 4y ago
  Yes, that’s still what I believe.
  - tastyfreeze 4y ago
    Do you not believe in your right to privacy? Or put another way, do you believe the government should know all your private conversations?
    - paulcole 4y ago
      I don’t believe the government should know all my private conversations without due process. But I also don’t believe my in-game chat is a private conversation.
      - tastyfreeze 4y ago
        A communication service provided by a company is no different than a room in a physical building. The government cannot "bug" a privately owned room without a warrant. Tech companies have granted the government freedom to "bug" all of their digital rooms. I long ago gave up on the idea that online communication is ever private. The FBI started recording all internet traffic in 1997 with Carnivore after all. But I do believe it should be private and require a warrant for the government to see. There are just too many bad things that can come from government monitoring all communications. The government shouldn't get a pass just because we haven't quite figured out how our rights apply in a digital space.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - manuelmoreale 4y ago
    If it’s a private instance of a server, run by you where the only people on it are you and your friends, shouldn’t be up to you and the other people to figure out what is and what isn’t appropriate to say? Why should you care about what the company who made the game have to say?
    - paulcole 4y ago
      > Why should you care about what the company who made the game have to say? Because it’s their game and I want to play it.
      - manuelmoreale 4y ago
        Yes but a chat content between you and your friend is no longer part of their game.
        paulcole 4y ago
        My original comment was specifically about in-game chat which is most definitely still part of their game.
        manuelmoreale 4y ago
        Yes but "in game" on a private server run by you means a chat between you and your friends. That's why I find it puzzling that you'd think that a company has the right to police that kind of content. When it's public and you're interacting with strangers makes total sense but on private servers?
        paulcole 4y ago
        But regardless of public/private, it’s still in their game right? They’re not banning me for the text messages I send or what I say in a Slack channel right? It’s their game, their chat system, and their decision.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    And perhaps the company that build your house or apartment building should install microphones in the walls, with a term in the dense sales contract / TOS that forbids modification of course. After all, you could be muttering hate speech in your living room, ahem, I mean their living room. They built it after all, so clearly it's rightfully theirs even if its ostensibly your property...
    - KennyBlanken 4y ago
      Minecraft having a message reporting system in a publicly playable game run by a game studio, and a team of people who decide what to do with those reports, has nothing to do with "microphones installed in the walls of people's homes." You've gone from misreprsenting things to suit your worldview (like you did in your initial message claiming "snitchware." Nothing in minecraft's moderation system is automatic - content must be flagged, first, by another user) to wildly unhinged "analogies."
      - bendbro 4y ago
        Company A builds Apartment Building. Company B builds game server software. Company A sells Apartment Building to Landlord. Company B sells software to Server Admin. Landlord leases Apartment to Leaser. Server Admin allows Gamer to connect to Server Software. Microphones installed by Company A in Apartment's walls catch Leaser saying Bad Word. Chat spy installed by Company B in Server Software catches Gamer saying Bad Word. Company A bans Leaser from all Apartment Buildings they constructed. Company B bans Gamer from all Server Software they leased out. Point to where this analogy is weak.
        jjj123 4y ago
        Housing is a human need, gaming is not. That’s why there are tons of regulations around housing that don’t apply to other industries. Not saying I disagree with your overall point, but the analogy is weak.
        4y ago
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  From the FAQ: https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/article/moderating-minecraft https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/article/moderating-minecraft > So, what’s new? Minecraft moderators may ban players who do not follow our Community Guidelines when sending online messages using our services (Realms) or Featured Servers, and communicating online through signposts and books. If you conduct yourself such that you manage to get banned from hosted / promoted servers, I have no problem with you being unable to participate in privately run servers. Nobody wants to be around people who act like that. Furthermore, action only comes about from player reports - contrary to the grandparent comment's misrepresentations about "snitchware" and so on, Minecraft moderator action can only come about from player reports - and only in certain specific, defined categories. There is no "right" to free speech in a private game. There is no "right" to play a private game.
josephcsible 4y ago
If you're hosting a game server on your own computer, Microsoft shouldn't get to censor you and your friends while you're playing on it.
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  They don't. Moderators can only receive reports from Realms and featured servers. If you get banned for bad behavior on those servers, then yes, you get banned from minecraft, period.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    > Moderation only applies to Realms and featured servers. I don't think this is true. In particular, note that it's useful to install https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/no-chat-reports https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/no-chat-reports on regular servers.
  - DoItToMe81 4y ago
    Both chat reporting and bans were extended to LAN, effectively cutting people off from the product they've bought. The context of the messages beyond a certain point aren't sent, so kids are already bullying other kids into cracking and reporting them. It has got to the point where modders are actively warning people against the report system. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/06/microsoft-will-start-banning-players-from-all-private-minecraft-servers/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/06/microsoft-will-start-... https://fabulously-optimized.gitbook.io/modpack/readme/chat-reporting-faq https://fabulously-optimized.gitbook.io/modpack/readme/chat-...
melony 4y ago
Just found the Gen Z
gamblor956 4y ago
There's a large segment of HN that doesn't get the same abuse online that women or minorities get so they think that everything digital should be a free-for-all, so you're getting downvoted by them for supporting moderation of publicly accessible online spaces. I agree with you. There is no expectation that someone should be able to say whatever they want in in-game chat. If people really want to do that, they're free to create their own game and accompanying chat infrastructure.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > If people really want to do that, they're free to create their own game and accompanying chat infrastructure. The reason that what Microsoft did is so horrendous is that they're banning people from the chat infrastructure that individual servers owners are running themselves. Or are you saying that if you don't want to be censored, it's not enough that you run your own chat server, but that you write all of the code from scratch for it too?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

aeturnum 4y ago

> I know some gamers wondered where Microsoft's firm insistence on chat reporting in Minecraft came from; the game became a runaway success without such a system and there were no major media scandals that seemed to prompt this change of attitude or priorities This comments suggests a profound ignorance of the realities online services. I've seen a lot of doubt that the Minecraft chat monitoring system is actually catching bad people and may, largely, be used to ban people for innocuous online mischief. If that's true, it's a shame and a black mark on Microsoft - but it's irresponsible to run around pretending that abusers are not trying to use these platforms to get to people. I have not seen a collection of incidents in minecraft, but there was a good article posted on HN covering some of the issues Roblox has in this area[1]. I assume that, if one goes through collected Minecraft chats, there's some pretty concerning content in there. I assume that because I've been playing online games for years and I've always encountered concerning content. There are no perfect solutions, but it seems obvious that we can do better than no safety net at all and have an obligation to try. That means we should both push back on flawed, un-neuanced systems like this new one in Minecraft and on lazy critiques of the attempt that pretend there is no problem. If you think that online spaces are a goodness and an important part of life, then I think you need to take seriously the need to setup controls that will let children and other vulnerable people use those spaces with greater safety while minimally restricting adults. It's not an easy problem at all, and as you note the authorities often start with a digital surveillance state, so we all have to be the change we wanna see in the world and advocate for solutions that are better for all the stakeholders. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32014754 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32014754