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>> "our workers get part ownership of the bakery and to make decisions about their wages and work hours" > Sounds like free market capitalism, not leftism Sou

by sofixa 4y ago

>> "our workers get part ownership of the bakery and to make decisions about their wages and work hours" > Sounds like free market capitalism, not leftism Sounds like workers (part) owning the means of production, so socialism. A cooperative, where workers participate in ownership and decision making, is something inspired by socialist ideas and ideals, so it's pretty leftist by definition. The fact that it takes place within the framework of free* market capitalism doesn't make it an extension of the latter.

WalterBright 4y ago
Free market means voluntary exchanges. This sort of operation fits in perfectly with that. Socialism is the government providing goods and services, which requires coercion.
- sofixa 4y ago
  > Socialism is the government providing goods and services, which requires coercion. No, this is flat out wrong, on so many levels. First, this is not what socialism is. Go read a few books on the matter, a ton have been written. The short of it is that the focus of socialism is workers and them owning the means of production. Historically socialism has been about fighting against the (existing) government for that, and replacing the traditional power structures (e.g. the soviets/workers councils that popped up in Russia). Second, a government providing services is called common sense and is a component of everything outside of (very specific types of) anarchy. Goods is another matter. > Free market means voluntary exchanges Depends on one's interpretation. E.g. there's a drastic power imbalance in the vast majority of labour relations. That's why there have been so many regulations to restrict the abuses resulting from that imbalance. So an absolutely free market does have a significant involuntary component to it (child/dangerous/very long labour).
- socialismisok 4y ago
  I'm genuinely curious where you picked up this mental model. There are plenty of reasons to be critical of socialism, no doubt, but what you are describing isn't socialism. Other comments have provided some things to look into, but if genuinely want to learn, I'm happy to explain and answer questions. Who knows, maybe it'll arm you to have stronger arguments against lefties like me, maybe it'll make you go, "oh that's all they want? Shit, I agree with at least some of that." Or maybe you'll still be (incorrectly) convinced that socialism is when "the government does stuff."

by sofixa 4y ago

WalterBright 4y ago

Free market means voluntary exchanges. This sort of operation fits in perfectly with that. Socialism is the government providing goods and services, which requires coercion.

sofixa 4y ago
> Socialism is the government providing goods and services, which requires coercion. No, this is flat out wrong, on so many levels. First, this is not what socialism is. Go read a few books on the matter, a ton have been written. The short of it is that the focus of socialism is workers and them owning the means of production. Historically socialism has been about fighting against the (existing) government for that, and replacing the traditional power structures (e.g. the soviets/workers councils that popped up in Russia). Second, a government providing services is called common sense and is a component of everything outside of (very specific types of) anarchy. Goods is another matter. > Free market means voluntary exchanges Depends on one's interpretation. E.g. there's a drastic power imbalance in the vast majority of labour relations. That's why there have been so many regulations to restrict the abuses resulting from that imbalance. So an absolutely free market does have a significant involuntary component to it (child/dangerous/very long labour).
socialismisok 4y ago
I'm genuinely curious where you picked up this mental model. There are plenty of reasons to be critical of socialism, no doubt, but what you are describing isn't socialism. Other comments have provided some things to look into, but if genuinely want to learn, I'm happy to explain and answer questions. Who knows, maybe it'll arm you to have stronger arguments against lefties like me, maybe it'll make you go, "oh that's all they want? Shit, I agree with at least some of that." Or maybe you'll still be (incorrectly) convinced that socialism is when "the government does stuff."