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Ukrainian version: https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1569739324781993987 https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1569739324781993987

thriftwy 4y ago
Not sure how it's supposed to work given the videos where Ukrainians shoot through PoW's legs or Georgian mercenaries shooting captives in the head. Also, no match in quality or writing to the German one.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- simonh 4y ago
  There were similar incidents in WW2, but the documents still worked. Huge numbers of Russians are surrendering safely in Ukraine. But then it seems unlikely that you don’t already know that?
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    Both sides claim extraordinary successes on all fronts so it's hard to track this exactly, but overall it seems that number of soldiers surrendering on the both sides is fairly small takong the overall sizes of armies into account. Russia broadcasted their agitation for the other side to surrender via FM radio, so the tech does improve, but the result seems very modest with any kind of tech.
    - jakzurr 4y ago
      It's not just hard to track, it's hard to know at all this early. There will be a lot more information over the next few months.
      - kergonath 4y ago
        For sure. That said, you’d think that soldiers surrendering would be used in propaganda, as was the case early on when the Ukrainian showed PoWs calling their families. In contrast we have a lot of documentation about mass graves, torture, and captured equipment and weapons. So I don’t think soldiers surrendering is very significant. Also, it’s easy for Russian soldiers to just take civilian clothes and disappear on either side of the front line. Much easier than for a German in France or Italy in 1944.
        coredog64 4y ago
        It’s a violation of the laws of war to use POWs for propaganda.
      - thriftwy 4y ago
        It's few months o'clock already - we haven't learned much since the conflict has started. Why the next few months would make a difference?
        simonh 4y ago
        I think we’ve learned an enormous amount since the start of the conflict. We’ve learned a lot about the tenacity, imagination and commitment of the Ukrainian people. We’ve learned about some severe limitations and weaknesses in Russian military organisation and doctrine. I don’t mean to beat on Russia in a partisan way, although I support Ukraine, but these are facts even many supporters of the Russian military acknowledge especially after the Kharkiv counter offensive. In that action we discovered that the Ukrainians are also capable of taking territory, not just the Russians. We don’t know precisely how the conflict will end, but we have excluded many possible endings that seemed plausible in the first days but now seem extremely improbably or practically impossible. In that way the possible space of outcomes had shrunk considerably. Russia isn’t going to capture Kyiv or depose the Ukrainian government by military force, for example. It seems increasingly unlikely that they are even going to take the entire Donbas region. It seems very unlikely that the conflict will be resolved this year. As winter bites, the situation may change though. As the months go on we will learn even more.
  - justsomehnguy 4y ago
    > Huge Any numbers?
    - simonh 4y ago
      It looks like several thousand in the Kharkiv region, the penetration of the lines and encirclement of some units was so fast they didn’t have any choice. But then several thousand Ukrainians were captured in Mariupol. I’m not trying to make out there’s an asymmetry in this, it’s not intended as a partisan comment. I’m just pointing out that surrendering is a viable option on both sides in many circumstances and is actually happening, sometimes for whole units.
      - thriftwy 4y ago
        What you are describing is indeed called surrendering and it does happen, but what the article describes seems more like 'defecting' and it doesn't seem to happen that much.
jakzurr 4y ago
Thanks for finding that; it's interesting.
- throw_a_grenade 4y ago
  Total luck, I recalled this popped out in Fritter half a week ago. What I found equally interesting were the videos where aggresor POWs phoned their families and told them about the war and to contact https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_the_Committees_of_Soldiers%27_Mothers_of_Russia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_the_Committees_of_S.... This was in the early days when aggresor still suppressed tho news, and this was a method to punch through the media censorship. Ukraine was criticised for this practice, because filming it allegedly violates dignity of POWs, so the videos don't appear anymore. But nonetheless I think it was very smart.
  - waffleiron 4y ago
    > because filming it allegedly violates dignity of POWs It wasn’t just about their dignity, but the fact that this was a likely breach of the Geneva convention. https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/ukraine-s-videos-of-crying-russian-prisoners-could-violate-the-geneva-conventions-20220307-p5a2f7.html https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/ukraine-s-videos-of-cryi...
    - throw_a_grenade 4y ago
      AFAIU it wasn't clear if it really was a breach of the Convention, and the videos appear to not involve intimidation nor public curiosity mentioned in the art. 13. So I didn't mention it. But at least some af them violated POW's privacy because their faces weren't blurred.

thriftwy 4y ago

Not sure how it's supposed to work given the videos where Ukrainians shoot through PoW's legs or Georgian mercenaries shooting captives in the head. Also, no match in quality or writing to the German one.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
simonh 4y ago
There were similar incidents in WW2, but the documents still worked. Huge numbers of Russians are surrendering safely in Ukraine. But then it seems unlikely that you don’t already know that?
- thriftwy 4y ago
  Both sides claim extraordinary successes on all fronts so it's hard to track this exactly, but overall it seems that number of soldiers surrendering on the both sides is fairly small takong the overall sizes of armies into account. Russia broadcasted their agitation for the other side to surrender via FM radio, so the tech does improve, but the result seems very modest with any kind of tech.
  - jakzurr 4y ago
    It's not just hard to track, it's hard to know at all this early. There will be a lot more information over the next few months.
    - kergonath 4y ago
      For sure. That said, you’d think that soldiers surrendering would be used in propaganda, as was the case early on when the Ukrainian showed PoWs calling their families. In contrast we have a lot of documentation about mass graves, torture, and captured equipment and weapons. So I don’t think soldiers surrendering is very significant. Also, it’s easy for Russian soldiers to just take civilian clothes and disappear on either side of the front line. Much easier than for a German in France or Italy in 1944.
      - coredog64 4y ago
        It’s a violation of the laws of war to use POWs for propaganda.
    - thriftwy 4y ago
      It's few months o'clock already - we haven't learned much since the conflict has started. Why the next few months would make a difference?
      - simonh 4y ago
        I think we’ve learned an enormous amount since the start of the conflict. We’ve learned a lot about the tenacity, imagination and commitment of the Ukrainian people. We’ve learned about some severe limitations and weaknesses in Russian military organisation and doctrine. I don’t mean to beat on Russia in a partisan way, although I support Ukraine, but these are facts even many supporters of the Russian military acknowledge especially after the Kharkiv counter offensive. In that action we discovered that the Ukrainians are also capable of taking territory, not just the Russians. We don’t know precisely how the conflict will end, but we have excluded many possible endings that seemed plausible in the first days but now seem extremely improbably or practically impossible. In that way the possible space of outcomes had shrunk considerably. Russia isn’t going to capture Kyiv or depose the Ukrainian government by military force, for example. It seems increasingly unlikely that they are even going to take the entire Donbas region. It seems very unlikely that the conflict will be resolved this year. As winter bites, the situation may change though. As the months go on we will learn even more.
- justsomehnguy 4y ago
  > Huge Any numbers?
  - simonh 4y ago
    It looks like several thousand in the Kharkiv region, the penetration of the lines and encirclement of some units was so fast they didn’t have any choice. But then several thousand Ukrainians were captured in Mariupol. I’m not trying to make out there’s an asymmetry in this, it’s not intended as a partisan comment. I’m just pointing out that surrendering is a viable option on both sides in many circumstances and is actually happening, sometimes for whole units.
    - thriftwy 4y ago
      What you are describing is indeed called surrendering and it does happen, but what the article describes seems more like 'defecting' and it doesn't seem to happen that much.

jakzurr 4y ago

Thanks for finding that; it's interesting.

throw_a_grenade 4y ago
Total luck, I recalled this popped out in Fritter half a week ago. What I found equally interesting were the videos where aggresor POWs phoned their families and told them about the war and to contact https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_the_Committees_of_Soldiers%27_Mothers_of_Russia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_the_Committees_of_S.... This was in the early days when aggresor still suppressed tho news, and this was a method to punch through the media censorship. Ukraine was criticised for this practice, because filming it allegedly violates dignity of POWs, so the videos don't appear anymore. But nonetheless I think it was very smart.
- waffleiron 4y ago
  > because filming it allegedly violates dignity of POWs It wasn’t just about their dignity, but the fact that this was a likely breach of the Geneva convention. https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/ukraine-s-videos-of-crying-russian-prisoners-could-violate-the-geneva-conventions-20220307-p5a2f7.html https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/ukraine-s-videos-of-cryi...
  - throw_a_grenade 4y ago
    AFAIU it wasn't clear if it really was a breach of the Convention, and the videos appear to not involve intimidation nor public curiosity mentioned in the art. 13. So I didn't mention it. But at least some af them violated POW's privacy because their faces weren't blurred.