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The Allied “Passierschein” Safe Conduct Passes of WWII (2003)

85 points by memorable 4y ago

jakzurr 4y ago
One of the psy-warfare references is Paul M.A. Linebarger, aka Cordwainer Smith. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordwainer_Smith https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordwainer_Smith
xjack 4y ago
throw_a_grenade 4y ago
Ukrainian version: https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1569739324781993987 https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1569739324781993987
- thriftwy 4y ago
  Not sure how it's supposed to work given the videos where Ukrainians shoot through PoW's legs or Georgian mercenaries shooting captives in the head. Also, no match in quality or writing to the German one.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - simonh 4y ago
    There were similar incidents in WW2, but the documents still worked. Huge numbers of Russians are surrendering safely in Ukraine. But then it seems unlikely that you don’t already know that?
    - thriftwy 4y ago
      Both sides claim extraordinary successes on all fronts so it's hard to track this exactly, but overall it seems that number of soldiers surrendering on the both sides is fairly small takong the overall sizes of armies into account. Russia broadcasted their agitation for the other side to surrender via FM radio, so the tech does improve, but the result seems very modest with any kind of tech.
      - jakzurr 4y ago
        It's not just hard to track, it's hard to know at all this early. There will be a lot more information over the next few months.
        kergonath 4y ago
        For sure. That said, you’d think that soldiers surrendering would be used in propaganda, as was the case early on when the Ukrainian showed PoWs calling their families. In contrast we have a lot of documentation about mass graves, torture, and captured equipment and weapons. So I don’t think soldiers surrendering is very significant. Also, it’s easy for Russian soldiers to just take civilian clothes and disappear on either side of the front line. Much easier than for a German in France or Italy in 1944.
        coredog64 4y ago
        It’s a violation of the laws of war to use POWs for propaganda.
        thriftwy 4y ago
        It's few months o'clock already - we haven't learned much since the conflict has started. Why the next few months would make a difference?
        simonh 4y ago
        I think we’ve learned an enormous amount since the start of the conflict. We’ve learned a lot about the tenacity, imagination and commitment of the Ukrainian people. We’ve learned about some severe limitations and weaknesses in Russian military organisation and doctrine. I don’t mean to beat on Russia in a partisan way, although I support Ukraine, but these are facts even many supporters of the Russian military acknowledge especially after the Kharkiv counter offensive. In that action we discovered that the Ukrainians are also capable of taking territory, not just the Russians. We don’t know precisely how the conflict will end, but we have excluded many possible endings that seemed plausible in the first days but now seem extremely improbably or practically impossible. In that way the possible space of outcomes had shrunk considerably. Russia isn’t going to capture Kyiv or depose the Ukrainian government by military force, for example. It seems increasingly unlikely that they are even going to take the entire Donbas region. It seems very unlikely that the conflict will be resolved this year. As winter bites, the situation may change though. As the months go on we will learn even more.
    - justsomehnguy 4y ago
      > Huge Any numbers?
      - simonh 4y ago
        It looks like several thousand in the Kharkiv region, the penetration of the lines and encirclement of some units was so fast they didn’t have any choice. But then several thousand Ukrainians were captured in Mariupol. I’m not trying to make out there’s an asymmetry in this, it’s not intended as a partisan comment. I’m just pointing out that surrendering is a viable option on both sides in many circumstances and is actually happening, sometimes for whole units.
        thriftwy 4y ago
        What you are describing is indeed called surrendering and it does happen, but what the article describes seems more like 'defecting' and it doesn't seem to happen that much.
- jakzurr 4y ago
  Thanks for finding that; it's interesting.
  - throw_a_grenade 4y ago
    Total luck, I recalled this popped out in Fritter half a week ago. What I found equally interesting were the videos where aggresor POWs phoned their families and told them about the war and to contact https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_the_Committees_of_Soldiers%27_Mothers_of_Russia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_the_Committees_of_S.... This was in the early days when aggresor still suppressed tho news, and this was a method to punch through the media censorship. Ukraine was criticised for this practice, because filming it allegedly violates dignity of POWs, so the videos don't appear anymore. But nonetheless I think it was very smart.
    - waffleiron 4y ago
      > because filming it allegedly violates dignity of POWs It wasn’t just about their dignity, but the fact that this was a likely breach of the Geneva convention. https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/ukraine-s-videos-of-crying-russian-prisoners-could-violate-the-geneva-conventions-20220307-p5a2f7.html https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/ukraine-s-videos-of-cryi...
      - throw_a_grenade 4y ago
        AFAIU it wasn't clear if it really was a breach of the Convention, and the videos appear to not involve intimidation nor public curiosity mentioned in the art. 13. So I didn't mention it. But at least some af them violated POW's privacy because their faces weren't blurred.
toast0 4y ago
Has anyone seen a related type of document, family lore says my grandfather had been detained by allied forces in Italy, and was given paperwork that said more or less he needed to stay in his hometown until the end of the war and not take up arms, but was released rather than taken prisoner of war. Apparently, he had been marked a deserter in the Italian army pension system, but filing a complaint and sending in that paperwork allowed him to collect a very small pension as a PoW in his old age. He had immigrated to the US not too long after the war.
- eesmith 4y ago
  I've heard of it, second-hand in a fictional account of one of the wars, but have failed to find information about its use in Italy. Here's what I did find. Quoting https://lieber.westpoint.edu/release-prisoners-war/ https://lieber.westpoint.edu/release-prisoners-war/ : > First, able-bodied POWs may be partially or wholly released on parole or promise if national law of the detaining power that of the State of origin of the POW permits this (art. 21, GCIII). As explained by the 2020 ICRC Commentary to GCIII, Article 21: “Such release typically occurs in exchange for a pledge not to take up arms again in the same conflict. The practice of paroling prisoners of war has declined considerably since 1949. In addition, many States today prohibit members of their armed forces from accepting release on parole” (para. 1920). Prisoners of war released on parole are compelled to keep their parole or promise. I can't tell if this means parole for those interned in a foreign country, or if they were allowed to return home under parole so long as they didn't fight. In looking around, I also found https://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitstream/handle/2123/7995/Willett_M_The%20World%20of%20a%20Gentleman.pdf?sequence=1 https://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitstream/handle/2123/7995/W... about the parole system in the US Civil War. It comments: > The American Civil War was the last western conflict where paroles were regularly employed and honoured by both armies. 14 where 14 is: > There were instances of parole in the Franco-Prussian War (1870-1871), the Boer War (1899-1902) and the First World War, but in general terms, after the American Civil War, the practice began its demise. For the Franco-Prussian War, see: Michael Howard, The Franco-Prussian War: the German Invasion of France, 1870-1871 (New York: Routledge, 2004), p. 222. The Prussian army allowed French officers to leave on their parole after the Prussian victory at the Battle of Sedan. For the Boer War, see: Major Gary D. Brown, ‘Prisoner of War Parole: Ancient Concept, Modern Utility’, Military Law Review, vol. 156 (June 1998), p. 207. The Boer guerrillas tried to place British POWs on parole, but these were largely disregarded. For the First World War, see: Paul Robinson, Military Honour and the Conduct of War: From Ancient Greece to Iraq (London and New York, 2006), p. 156. The French placed some German officers on parole early in the conflict, but the practice was not reciprocated by the Germans A comment at https://history.stackexchange.com/a/66023 https://history.stackexchange.com/a/66023 says: > In summer 1940, the German Wehrmacht had captured 2 million Dutch, Belgian and French soldiers. All of the Dutch and Flemish and about a third of the French POWs were released on parole because the Germans coulnd't supply them and already had half a million Polish POWs as workforce (de facto: slaves). Mark Mazower, Hitlers Imperium: Europa unter der Herrschaft des Nationalsozialismus. C.H.Beck, Munich 2009. Page 152 You'll likely have to ask in a more specialized forum to find the information and documentation you're wondering about.
willyt 4y ago
I wonder why the EU/UK/US don’t just pay Russian soldiers to surrender. How much would it take do you think? $5k each? Might be cheaper than shooting at them.
- throwaway821909 4y ago
  Wouldn't we then have to give them some sort of asylum? Doubt that would go down well.
  - mwint 4y ago
    Why not?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- rospaya 4y ago
  Because they get a salary for not surrendering? Because they have a family? Because they can be punished? Because they're mostly professional soldiers?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

85 points by memorable 4y ago

One of the psy-warfare references is Paul M.A. Linebarger, aka Cordwainer Smith. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordwainer_Smith https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordwainer_Smith

xjack 4y ago

throw_a_grenade 4y ago

Ukrainian version: https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1569739324781993987 https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1569739324781993987

thriftwy 4y ago
Not sure how it's supposed to work given the videos where Ukrainians shoot through PoW's legs or Georgian mercenaries shooting captives in the head. Also, no match in quality or writing to the German one.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- simonh 4y ago
  There were similar incidents in WW2, but the documents still worked. Huge numbers of Russians are surrendering safely in Ukraine. But then it seems unlikely that you don’t already know that?
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    Both sides claim extraordinary successes on all fronts so it's hard to track this exactly, but overall it seems that number of soldiers surrendering on the both sides is fairly small takong the overall sizes of armies into account. Russia broadcasted their agitation for the other side to surrender via FM radio, so the tech does improve, but the result seems very modest with any kind of tech.
    - jakzurr 4y ago
      It's not just hard to track, it's hard to know at all this early. There will be a lot more information over the next few months.
      - kergonath 4y ago
        For sure. That said, you’d think that soldiers surrendering would be used in propaganda, as was the case early on when the Ukrainian showed PoWs calling their families. In contrast we have a lot of documentation about mass graves, torture, and captured equipment and weapons. So I don’t think soldiers surrendering is very significant. Also, it’s easy for Russian soldiers to just take civilian clothes and disappear on either side of the front line. Much easier than for a German in France or Italy in 1944.
        coredog64 4y ago
        It’s a violation of the laws of war to use POWs for propaganda.
      - thriftwy 4y ago
        It's few months o'clock already - we haven't learned much since the conflict has started. Why the next few months would make a difference?
        simonh 4y ago
        I think we’ve learned an enormous amount since the start of the conflict. We’ve learned a lot about the tenacity, imagination and commitment of the Ukrainian people. We’ve learned about some severe limitations and weaknesses in Russian military organisation and doctrine. I don’t mean to beat on Russia in a partisan way, although I support Ukraine, but these are facts even many supporters of the Russian military acknowledge especially after the Kharkiv counter offensive. In that action we discovered that the Ukrainians are also capable of taking territory, not just the Russians. We don’t know precisely how the conflict will end, but we have excluded many possible endings that seemed plausible in the first days but now seem extremely improbably or practically impossible. In that way the possible space of outcomes had shrunk considerably. Russia isn’t going to capture Kyiv or depose the Ukrainian government by military force, for example. It seems increasingly unlikely that they are even going to take the entire Donbas region. It seems very unlikely that the conflict will be resolved this year. As winter bites, the situation may change though. As the months go on we will learn even more.
  - justsomehnguy 4y ago
    > Huge Any numbers?
    - simonh 4y ago
      It looks like several thousand in the Kharkiv region, the penetration of the lines and encirclement of some units was so fast they didn’t have any choice. But then several thousand Ukrainians were captured in Mariupol. I’m not trying to make out there’s an asymmetry in this, it’s not intended as a partisan comment. I’m just pointing out that surrendering is a viable option on both sides in many circumstances and is actually happening, sometimes for whole units.
      - thriftwy 4y ago
        What you are describing is indeed called surrendering and it does happen, but what the article describes seems more like 'defecting' and it doesn't seem to happen that much.
jakzurr 4y ago
Thanks for finding that; it's interesting.
- throw_a_grenade 4y ago
  Total luck, I recalled this popped out in Fritter half a week ago. What I found equally interesting were the videos where aggresor POWs phoned their families and told them about the war and to contact https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_the_Committees_of_Soldiers%27_Mothers_of_Russia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_the_Committees_of_S.... This was in the early days when aggresor still suppressed tho news, and this was a method to punch through the media censorship. Ukraine was criticised for this practice, because filming it allegedly violates dignity of POWs, so the videos don't appear anymore. But nonetheless I think it was very smart.
  - waffleiron 4y ago
    > because filming it allegedly violates dignity of POWs It wasn’t just about their dignity, but the fact that this was a likely breach of the Geneva convention. https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/ukraine-s-videos-of-crying-russian-prisoners-could-violate-the-geneva-conventions-20220307-p5a2f7.html https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/ukraine-s-videos-of-cryi...
    - throw_a_grenade 4y ago
      AFAIU it wasn't clear if it really was a breach of the Convention, and the videos appear to not involve intimidation nor public curiosity mentioned in the art. 13. So I didn't mention it. But at least some af them violated POW's privacy because their faces weren't blurred.

toast0 4y ago

Has anyone seen a related type of document, family lore says my grandfather had been detained by allied forces in Italy, and was given paperwork that said more or less he needed to stay in his hometown until the end of the war and not take up arms, but was released rather than taken prisoner of war. Apparently, he had been marked a deserter in the Italian army pension system, but filing a complaint and sending in that paperwork allowed him to collect a very small pension as a PoW in his old age. He had immigrated to the US not too long after the war.

eesmith 4y ago
I've heard of it, second-hand in a fictional account of one of the wars, but have failed to find information about its use in Italy. Here's what I did find. Quoting https://lieber.westpoint.edu/release-prisoners-war/ https://lieber.westpoint.edu/release-prisoners-war/ : > First, able-bodied POWs may be partially or wholly released on parole or promise if national law of the detaining power that of the State of origin of the POW permits this (art. 21, GCIII). As explained by the 2020 ICRC Commentary to GCIII, Article 21: “Such release typically occurs in exchange for a pledge not to take up arms again in the same conflict. The practice of paroling prisoners of war has declined considerably since 1949. In addition, many States today prohibit members of their armed forces from accepting release on parole” (para. 1920). Prisoners of war released on parole are compelled to keep their parole or promise. I can't tell if this means parole for those interned in a foreign country, or if they were allowed to return home under parole so long as they didn't fight. In looking around, I also found https://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitstream/handle/2123/7995/Willett_M_The%20World%20of%20a%20Gentleman.pdf?sequence=1 https://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitstream/handle/2123/7995/W... about the parole system in the US Civil War. It comments: > The American Civil War was the last western conflict where paroles were regularly employed and honoured by both armies. 14 where 14 is: > There were instances of parole in the Franco-Prussian War (1870-1871), the Boer War (1899-1902) and the First World War, but in general terms, after the American Civil War, the practice began its demise. For the Franco-Prussian War, see: Michael Howard, The Franco-Prussian War: the German Invasion of France, 1870-1871 (New York: Routledge, 2004), p. 222. The Prussian army allowed French officers to leave on their parole after the Prussian victory at the Battle of Sedan. For the Boer War, see: Major Gary D. Brown, ‘Prisoner of War Parole: Ancient Concept, Modern Utility’, Military Law Review, vol. 156 (June 1998), p. 207. The Boer guerrillas tried to place British POWs on parole, but these were largely disregarded. For the First World War, see: Paul Robinson, Military Honour and the Conduct of War: From Ancient Greece to Iraq (London and New York, 2006), p. 156. The French placed some German officers on parole early in the conflict, but the practice was not reciprocated by the Germans A comment at https://history.stackexchange.com/a/66023 https://history.stackexchange.com/a/66023 says: > In summer 1940, the German Wehrmacht had captured 2 million Dutch, Belgian and French soldiers. All of the Dutch and Flemish and about a third of the French POWs were released on parole because the Germans coulnd't supply them and already had half a million Polish POWs as workforce (de facto: slaves). Mark Mazower, Hitlers Imperium: Europa unter der Herrschaft des Nationalsozialismus. C.H.Beck, Munich 2009. Page 152 You'll likely have to ask in a more specialized forum to find the information and documentation you're wondering about.

willyt 4y ago

I wonder why the EU/UK/US don’t just pay Russian soldiers to surrender. How much would it take do you think? $5k each? Might be cheaper than shooting at them.

throwaway821909 4y ago
Wouldn't we then have to give them some sort of asylum? Doubt that would go down well.
- mwint 4y ago
  Why not?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
rospaya 4y ago
Because they get a salary for not surrendering? Because they have a family? Because they can be punished? Because they're mostly professional soldiers?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]