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One thing I've not seen a decent discussion of is what industries benefit from enormous amounts of almost free electricity? Other than the manufacturers of wind

One thing I've not seen a decent discussion of is what industries benefit from enormous amounts of almost free electricity? Other than the manufacturers of wind, solar, etc systems, how does this effect the economy? Obviously that effect is going to be significant, but what exactly does it look like?

alexvoda 4y ago
Aluminium production, desalination, and more
- alexvoda 4y ago
  Eventually synthetic fuel will become economically viable.
  - Schroedingersat 4y ago
    Eventually is right now. Hydrogen and ammonia electrolyzers are being built by the tens of megawatts as we speak. Presently for chemical synthesis, but use in fuel cells or turbines is not far behind. Simple synthetic hydrocarbons follow soon after that.
    - alexvoda 4y ago
      Hydrogen is still cheaper to get from methane. And synthetic hydrocarbons are still expensive. But we are moving towards economic viability. The desired point to get to is to have fossil fuel extraction unprofitable, economically nonviable. At that point even the most ardent deniers of climate change will have to give up fossil fuels or face bankruptcy.
      - Schroedingersat 4y ago
        Once you include the risk profile any government which is actually governing (I know this is getting rarer) will want a fair bit of synthetic production capacity to reduce the impact of price shocks. The costs of ammonia and urea shortages to a country are much higher than the sticker price when trucking and agriculture depend on them. This strategic capacity investment is sufficient to set off economies of scale which will see the baseline prices start to look less appealing -- even with the current state of massively subsidized fossil fuels. The hard part is getting neoliberal governments to do the thing that is actually the only economically sane option when they've all got massive conflicts of interest.
- pfdietz 4y ago
  Aluminum production is a bit problematic, since aluminum pots cannot be turned off too long without failing (either freezing up or overheating the walls).
  - Schroedingersat 4y ago
    This is simple and not that costly to change. There are retrofit systems that allow a factor of 2 or 3 variability in electricity consumption, and even the ability to completely switch off for a few hours can smooth demand if it's planned rather than last resort. This allows a country like Australia to turn on or off 3-5% of its total electricity demand which is a decent chunk of the duck curve.
mistrial9 4y ago
it looks like most cities in the world -- excessive, 24-hour, advertising and safety with electricity.. the external costs of everything fossil-fuel are not at all inline with the reality of what is happening with Climate now
pydry 4y ago
In the UK it already means all the electric car drivers program their cars to charge when it gets really windy (or did). Once grids implement a sane variable pricing system and manage transmission capacity properly electricity prices are unlikely to go zero or negative. EVs alone will probably soak up excess demand (& contribute back when pumped storage starts running dry).
mabbo 4y ago
I think it will be important as we transition to EVs to have more energy available. In Ontario, the typical family home uses something like 750 kWh/month on average. If you estimate 5km/kWh (roughly right?), and presume a car is driving something like 1000 km/month, that's an extra 200 kWh/month needed, about a 25% increase. But in the less developed parts of the world, a car might just be a much larger component of personal energy use- perhaps most of it.
- martythemaniak 4y ago
  Hydro is very hourly. During peak times, we use about 2x the electricity used at night. The grid is built for the peak. Thus, as long as people don't charge during the absolute peak (about 2hrs a day) there's no capacity issue at all.
pfdietz 4y ago
Ultimately, any industry using process heat will benefit, by using resistively heated thermal stores when power is cheap. https://spectrum.ieee.org/could-storing-electricity-in-whitehot-blocks-give-supercheap-renewables-storage https://spectrum.ieee.org/could-storing-electricity-in-white... https://rondo.com/ https://rondo.com/
ncmncm 4y ago
Desalination might be the best use for excess generating capacity, after the local storage is all charged up. (Desalination costs >140x less energy than extraction by current dehumidification methods, although a recent advance in the latter may vut this to just 60x.) Then, pump the desalinated water up to high-altitude reservoirs. In some places (e.g. Northern California) that could be as simple as vaporizing the water and letting the wind carry it to the mountains, to be rained into reservoirs. Desalination might then amount to pumping seawater through greenhouses and exhausting the humid air, much more cheaply than forcing it through membranes. There is no need to get every last water molecule out, as there is a plenty of seawater. The only cost is pumping. Outgoing effluent may be used both to pre-warm incoming water, and assist pumping via directly coupled turbines. Less-concentrated, cooler effluent is better for ecosystems it drains into. It could also be be made to capture and carry away atmospheric CO2, on its way out, with enough lime added to maintain pH. Cement makers might operate these systems to avoid carbon taxes.

alexvoda 4y ago

Aluminium production, desalination, and more

alexvoda 4y ago
Eventually synthetic fuel will become economically viable.
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  Eventually is right now. Hydrogen and ammonia electrolyzers are being built by the tens of megawatts as we speak. Presently for chemical synthesis, but use in fuel cells or turbines is not far behind. Simple synthetic hydrocarbons follow soon after that.
  - alexvoda 4y ago
    Hydrogen is still cheaper to get from methane. And synthetic hydrocarbons are still expensive. But we are moving towards economic viability. The desired point to get to is to have fossil fuel extraction unprofitable, economically nonviable. At that point even the most ardent deniers of climate change will have to give up fossil fuels or face bankruptcy.
    - Schroedingersat 4y ago
      Once you include the risk profile any government which is actually governing (I know this is getting rarer) will want a fair bit of synthetic production capacity to reduce the impact of price shocks. The costs of ammonia and urea shortages to a country are much higher than the sticker price when trucking and agriculture depend on them. This strategic capacity investment is sufficient to set off economies of scale which will see the baseline prices start to look less appealing -- even with the current state of massively subsidized fossil fuels. The hard part is getting neoliberal governments to do the thing that is actually the only economically sane option when they've all got massive conflicts of interest.
pfdietz 4y ago
Aluminum production is a bit problematic, since aluminum pots cannot be turned off too long without failing (either freezing up or overheating the walls).
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  This is simple and not that costly to change. There are retrofit systems that allow a factor of 2 or 3 variability in electricity consumption, and even the ability to completely switch off for a few hours can smooth demand if it's planned rather than last resort. This allows a country like Australia to turn on or off 3-5% of its total electricity demand which is a decent chunk of the duck curve.

mistrial9 4y ago

it looks like most cities in the world -- excessive, 24-hour, advertising and safety with electricity.. the external costs of everything fossil-fuel are not at all inline with the reality of what is happening with Climate now

pydry 4y ago

In the UK it already means all the electric car drivers program their cars to charge when it gets really windy (or did). Once grids implement a sane variable pricing system and manage transmission capacity properly electricity prices are unlikely to go zero or negative. EVs alone will probably soak up excess demand (& contribute back when pumped storage starts running dry).

mabbo 4y ago

I think it will be important as we transition to EVs to have more energy available. In Ontario, the typical family home uses something like 750 kWh/month on average. If you estimate 5km/kWh (roughly right?), and presume a car is driving something like 1000 km/month, that's an extra 200 kWh/month needed, about a 25% increase. But in the less developed parts of the world, a car might just be a much larger component of personal energy use- perhaps most of it.

martythemaniak 4y ago
Hydro is very hourly. During peak times, we use about 2x the electricity used at night. The grid is built for the peak. Thus, as long as people don't charge during the absolute peak (about 2hrs a day) there's no capacity issue at all.

pfdietz 4y ago

Ultimately, any industry using process heat will benefit, by using resistively heated thermal stores when power is cheap. https://spectrum.ieee.org/could-storing-electricity-in-whitehot-blocks-give-supercheap-renewables-storage https://spectrum.ieee.org/could-storing-electricity-in-white... https://rondo.com/ https://rondo.com/

ncmncm 4y ago

Desalination might be the best use for excess generating capacity, after the local storage is all charged up. (Desalination costs >140x less energy than extraction by current dehumidification methods, although a recent advance in the latter may vut this to just 60x.) Then, pump the desalinated water up to high-altitude reservoirs. In some places (e.g. Northern California) that could be as simple as vaporizing the water and letting the wind carry it to the mountains, to be rained into reservoirs. Desalination might then amount to pumping seawater through greenhouses and exhausting the humid air, much more cheaply than forcing it through membranes. There is no need to get every last water molecule out, as there is a plenty of seawater. The only cost is pumping. Outgoing effluent may be used both to pre-warm incoming water, and assist pumping via directly coupled turbines. Less-concentrated, cooler effluent is better for ecosystems it drains into. It could also be be made to capture and carry away atmospheric CO2, on its way out, with enough lime added to maintain pH. Cement makers might operate these systems to avoid carbon taxes.