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No. Because as much as your absolute moral certitude might feel good to express you aren’t changing anyone’s mind with it. On the contrary. There’s tens if not

No. Because as much as your absolute moral certitude might feel good to express you aren’t changing anyone’s mind with it. On the contrary. There’s tens if not hundreds of millions of them and same for you guys. We are all stuck together in one polity. If we are ever going to achieve a synthesis and get back to a healthier place it’s not going to involve the kind of rhetoric you are indulging in here.

o_1 4y ago
Whoa things escalated quickly, points like these are a complicated of saying no their baddies and here's some fear on top.
mindslight 4y ago
Rhetoric? I'm making an objective point about the political spectrum. Moldbug labeled his own philosophy as the Reaction, and condemned conservatism as being doomed to perpetual failure because some progressivism inevitably occurs regardless. And it's just plainly nonsensical to label a movement aimed at undermining longstanding institutions as "conservative". As far as synthesis and reconciliation, for a long time I viewed the answer as that of respecting individual liberty. Each party seems to get its constituents excited about a desire for individual freedoms on topics that matter to them, and then transmutes that energy into enacting authoritarian regulations that benefit their commercial sponsors. I had hoped that over time the liberty would be an attractor that gained ever more ground. But the flare up of grassroots authoritarianism, specifically in the Republican party where it has gone mainstream, has shown this was too optimistic. So I'm left hoping that there are enough actual conservatives horrified by these developments that will end up voting for the actually conservative options (which now seems to be mostly in the Democratic party) to keep the off the rails reactionary populism from causing too much damage.
- trimethylpurine 4y ago
  Some Republican movements have been authoritarian, but an effort to prevent people from saying that which is undesirable is definition authoritarian just as much if not more so. I don't know what example of authoritarianism you would offer as characteristic of the Republican party, but I'm sure you could offer more than one or two. That's because both political parties must push authoritarianism because both must accumulate authoritarian power to stay in the game, lest they be overpowered by the opposing party. While constituents, we the people, agree on most points like personal freedom, individuality, respect of human life, and liberty etc., politicians of both parties, out of necessity, must paint their opponents as the authoritarian regime, set on revoking personal freedom and individuality, and devaluing human life. If you dislike either party, it's not because one is more authoritarian than the other. It's because we lack the mental capacity to retain all the information that makes up the world around us, and must therefore make easier to process, generalizations to survive; Republican, Democrat, grassroots, mainstream, Black, Hispanic, White, etc. And it's obviously no secret that this necessity to generalize is very much exploitable. What you don't like about the Republican party is all the things that are also the Democratic party, but only in a generalized view that the opposing parties' electorate has succeeded to exploit in your mind.
  - fzeroracer 4y ago
    This is simply not true. You're trying to do a 'both sides are bad it's only your perception coloring your things' deal, but I live in a red state where Republicans encouraged bounty hunters to go after and harass women while also trying to control them if they leave to other states. The only 'generalized view' is the one being created by Republicans, which I see pushed by Republicans and supported by Republicans. You don't have to look far to see some of the dreadful things they're pushing, and trying to pretend both sides are equally bad is not only intellectually dishonest but it's also argumentally lazy.
    - junofan 4y ago
      [flagged]
    - trimethylpurine 4y ago
      You've given me anecdotes and then proceeded to generalize. And called me lazy, which taken together is hilarious. Let's investigate that philosophy, shall we? Generalizing by nature requires the ignorance of certain truths or anecdotes, in favor of others in order to simplify and conceptualize complex ideas about the world around us. Read that again. Generalizing requires ignorance. When you generalize, which you just did, you are, if only by definition, wrong. You must be, logically. If you need help gaining some understanding of logic systems, I'm happy to oblige, because I'm not "argumentally" lazy. (That's not a real word by the way.) Not all Democrats make up words. Not all Republicans hire bounty hunters. In summary, when you generalize people as a group to be of a particular belief or characteristic, you must by definition ignore the vast majority of ideas that are intrinsic to the humanity and individuality within the group. That is dehumanizing; it's factually wrong, and it's frankly immoral.
      - fzeroracer 4y ago
        The whole bounty hunter thing is something that was championed by the Republican party. Both locally here in Texas as well as by the party as a whole. I'm not sure how you can call that generalizing when the party directly supports that position. If someone calls themselves a Republican and votes for them knowing that this is their position, then they tacitly support it. You're effectively taking the stance that you cannot ever criticize a political party for its actions because some small portion of its constituents may disagree which is like I mentioned before, the easy way out. It's avoiding arguing against the actual critique in favor of moving the argument somewhere entirely different.
- Test0129 4y ago
  >But the flare up of grassroots authoritarianism, specifically in the Republican party where it has gone mainstream Wow that took a turn to a hot take really fast. You don't find the rise of the green left, the authoritarian self-described socialists like "The Squad", etc to be the equivalent on the left? Or do you only view things through the lens of the party you like? Yes, the green energy, banning ICE, defunding police, anti-liberty left is just as bad as the deep right wing that wants to ban abortion and all the other things they do. There's no question and there is no ambiguity. Both want control of what you do in nearly every aspect of your life. Waking up involves realizing both of the extremes (left and right) would happily put you against the wall. Extremism begets extremism. Authoritarianism begets authoritarianism. The horseshoe theory of politics has reached its peak in the last 6 years and opinions like this are part of the reason why. It's always "Them". Never "Us". If only "They" could wake up they'd finally love "Our" version of big brother. How exhausting it must be to constantly find a way to simplify a vast group of people down into the absolute edge cases and judge them entirely on that edge case.
  - mindslight 4y ago
    > self-described socialists like "The Squad" ... banning ICE, defunding police These are not positions of the mainstream Democratic party. The Democratic party is still basically constrained to its traditional function of channeling constituents frustration into boring status-quo corporate-first policies, much to the chagrin of people who do support the things you've listed. > green energy I don't know how you're saying green energy is authoritarian. If it's the economic meddling with subsidies, I'd say it's disingenuous to focus on that when fossil fuels, and overproduction in general, have been so heavily subsidized. I'd much rather the government did not print trillions of dollars and give it away as corporate welfare, but if it's going to, I'd rather it go to forward thinking technologies rather than just lining the pockets of existing industries. > It's always "Them". Never "Us". If only "They" could wake up they'd finally love "Our" version of big brother. I'm not an "our". I routinely get into arguments with Democratic friends advocating bureaucracy-centric corporate-first policies that their politicians have convinced them are genuine attempts at reform. I've read plenty of reactionary writing and think it has fantastic critiques about the Cathedral and the deep state. I think those structures are ultimately at odds with personal liberty and enlightenment. However this does not mean that I view every attempt to attack those structures as a good thing.
fzeroracer 4y ago
You're posting in a thread about a topic where they're literally trying to do exactly what the GP is saying. I don't know what you view as a 'middle road' given that their starting negotiating point is 'users cannot be banned for any reason ever'.

o_1 4y ago

Whoa things escalated quickly, points like these are a complicated of saying no their baddies and here's some fear on top.

mindslight 4y ago

Rhetoric? I'm making an objective point about the political spectrum. Moldbug labeled his own philosophy as the Reaction, and condemned conservatism as being doomed to perpetual failure because some progressivism inevitably occurs regardless. And it's just plainly nonsensical to label a movement aimed at undermining longstanding institutions as "conservative". As far as synthesis and reconciliation, for a long time I viewed the answer as that of respecting individual liberty. Each party seems to get its constituents excited about a desire for individual freedoms on topics that matter to them, and then transmutes that energy into enacting authoritarian regulations that benefit their commercial sponsors. I had hoped that over time the liberty would be an attractor that gained ever more ground. But the flare up of grassroots authoritarianism, specifically in the Republican party where it has gone mainstream, has shown this was too optimistic. So I'm left hoping that there are enough actual conservatives horrified by these developments that will end up voting for the actually conservative options (which now seems to be mostly in the Democratic party) to keep the off the rails reactionary populism from causing too much damage.

trimethylpurine 4y ago
Some Republican movements have been authoritarian, but an effort to prevent people from saying that which is undesirable is definition authoritarian just as much if not more so. I don't know what example of authoritarianism you would offer as characteristic of the Republican party, but I'm sure you could offer more than one or two. That's because both political parties must push authoritarianism because both must accumulate authoritarian power to stay in the game, lest they be overpowered by the opposing party. While constituents, we the people, agree on most points like personal freedom, individuality, respect of human life, and liberty etc., politicians of both parties, out of necessity, must paint their opponents as the authoritarian regime, set on revoking personal freedom and individuality, and devaluing human life. If you dislike either party, it's not because one is more authoritarian than the other. It's because we lack the mental capacity to retain all the information that makes up the world around us, and must therefore make easier to process, generalizations to survive; Republican, Democrat, grassroots, mainstream, Black, Hispanic, White, etc. And it's obviously no secret that this necessity to generalize is very much exploitable. What you don't like about the Republican party is all the things that are also the Democratic party, but only in a generalized view that the opposing parties' electorate has succeeded to exploit in your mind.
- fzeroracer 4y ago
  This is simply not true. You're trying to do a 'both sides are bad it's only your perception coloring your things' deal, but I live in a red state where Republicans encouraged bounty hunters to go after and harass women while also trying to control them if they leave to other states. The only 'generalized view' is the one being created by Republicans, which I see pushed by Republicans and supported by Republicans. You don't have to look far to see some of the dreadful things they're pushing, and trying to pretend both sides are equally bad is not only intellectually dishonest but it's also argumentally lazy.
  - junofan 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - trimethylpurine 4y ago
    You've given me anecdotes and then proceeded to generalize. And called me lazy, which taken together is hilarious. Let's investigate that philosophy, shall we? Generalizing by nature requires the ignorance of certain truths or anecdotes, in favor of others in order to simplify and conceptualize complex ideas about the world around us. Read that again. Generalizing requires ignorance. When you generalize, which you just did, you are, if only by definition, wrong. You must be, logically. If you need help gaining some understanding of logic systems, I'm happy to oblige, because I'm not "argumentally" lazy. (That's not a real word by the way.) Not all Democrats make up words. Not all Republicans hire bounty hunters. In summary, when you generalize people as a group to be of a particular belief or characteristic, you must by definition ignore the vast majority of ideas that are intrinsic to the humanity and individuality within the group. That is dehumanizing; it's factually wrong, and it's frankly immoral.
    - fzeroracer 4y ago
      The whole bounty hunter thing is something that was championed by the Republican party. Both locally here in Texas as well as by the party as a whole. I'm not sure how you can call that generalizing when the party directly supports that position. If someone calls themselves a Republican and votes for them knowing that this is their position, then they tacitly support it. You're effectively taking the stance that you cannot ever criticize a political party for its actions because some small portion of its constituents may disagree which is like I mentioned before, the easy way out. It's avoiding arguing against the actual critique in favor of moving the argument somewhere entirely different.
Test0129 4y ago
>But the flare up of grassroots authoritarianism, specifically in the Republican party where it has gone mainstream Wow that took a turn to a hot take really fast. You don't find the rise of the green left, the authoritarian self-described socialists like "The Squad", etc to be the equivalent on the left? Or do you only view things through the lens of the party you like? Yes, the green energy, banning ICE, defunding police, anti-liberty left is just as bad as the deep right wing that wants to ban abortion and all the other things they do. There's no question and there is no ambiguity. Both want control of what you do in nearly every aspect of your life. Waking up involves realizing both of the extremes (left and right) would happily put you against the wall. Extremism begets extremism. Authoritarianism begets authoritarianism. The horseshoe theory of politics has reached its peak in the last 6 years and opinions like this are part of the reason why. It's always "Them". Never "Us". If only "They" could wake up they'd finally love "Our" version of big brother. How exhausting it must be to constantly find a way to simplify a vast group of people down into the absolute edge cases and judge them entirely on that edge case.
- mindslight 4y ago
  > self-described socialists like "The Squad" ... banning ICE, defunding police These are not positions of the mainstream Democratic party. The Democratic party is still basically constrained to its traditional function of channeling constituents frustration into boring status-quo corporate-first policies, much to the chagrin of people who do support the things you've listed. > green energy I don't know how you're saying green energy is authoritarian. If it's the economic meddling with subsidies, I'd say it's disingenuous to focus on that when fossil fuels, and overproduction in general, have been so heavily subsidized. I'd much rather the government did not print trillions of dollars and give it away as corporate welfare, but if it's going to, I'd rather it go to forward thinking technologies rather than just lining the pockets of existing industries. > It's always "Them". Never "Us". If only "They" could wake up they'd finally love "Our" version of big brother. I'm not an "our". I routinely get into arguments with Democratic friends advocating bureaucracy-centric corporate-first policies that their politicians have convinced them are genuine attempts at reform. I've read plenty of reactionary writing and think it has fantastic critiques about the Cathedral and the deep state. I think those structures are ultimately at odds with personal liberty and enlightenment. However this does not mean that I view every attempt to attack those structures as a good thing.

fzeroracer 4y ago

You're posting in a thread about a topic where they're literally trying to do exactly what the GP is saying. I don't know what you view as a 'middle road' given that their starting negotiating point is 'users cannot be banned for any reason ever'.