4 ms·

> On the other hand, we also recognise that we can’t force people to work with those they don’t want to. If I don't want to work with a black person, do I have

> On the other hand, we also recognise that we can’t force people to work with those they don’t want to. If I don't want to work with a black person, do I have a right to demand they be fired? (this is a theoretical question)

gtirloni 4y ago
Is being a black person a crime? Can you serve time for being black? Unless this is true, your comparison between being black and being a rapist isn't valid.
- gray_-_wolf 4y ago
  > Can you serve time for being black? Well, in USA many people served lifetime sentence of forced labor for being black, so I guess the answer is "yes"?
  - gtirloni 4y ago
    It's not. Nobody in 2022 serves sentences for being black, according to the law (unless the justice system made a mistake). It was a rethorical question.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- hexomancer 4y ago
  What if I was uncomfortable with a homosexual coworker (and homosexuality actualy is a crime in my country). Would that be OK?
  - becquerel 4y ago
    You are mistakenly (or deliberately, I guess) conflating ethics with legality. Rape is different from homosexuality because homosexuality isn't harmful or morally wrong.
    - hexomancer 4y ago
      My parent post specifically used the word "crime" my response was to show that "being a crime" is not a good reason. Also morality is subjective. For example, the government of my country argues that homosexuality is immoral (obviously I disagree). So the question is whose moral are we considering? Your personal morality? Mine? And is it moral to ostracize someone from society because of a crime they have been punished for?
      - ModernMech 4y ago
        > So the question is whose moral are we considering? Your personal morality? Mine? The morals of the community in question. The laws and customs of unrelated countries or communities are immaterial to the decisions of this particular community. > And is it moral to ostracize someone from society because of a crime they have been punished for? It's one thing to ostracize someone from society entirely. It's much less extreme for one particular community to say that someone with a track record of abusing authority or positions of trust shouldn't be put in a position of authority or trust. There are only a limited number of positions of authority in this community, and plenty of people who are perhaps more deserving of that position who don't have a track record of abusing such positions. It was noted that this person received financial support from the conference. Maybe that didn't need to happen, given there are others who were not financially supported?
        hexomancer 4y ago
        > The morals of the community in question. The laws and customs of unrelated countries or communities are immaterial to the decisions of this particular community. So it is OK for me to demand a homosexual co-worker be fired if the community of my workspace is homophobic?
        ModernMech 4y ago
        In your country I guess it would be lawful, but I personally wouldn't say it's morally okay. For instance, I have no problem with the Catholic church banning gay priests. But I'm not outraged because doing so isn't banning gays from society.
asddubs 4y ago
it's the paradox of tolerance. a jewish person might be unwilling to work in a place that tolerates an open nazi, and a racist might be unwilling to work with a black person. The point is that you have to make a decision at the end of the day, because not making a decision is also making a decision. And usually it's not the people who hate black people who will choose to leave. So while this is an example where you would obviously not want to respect the wish of the person uncomfortable working with someone else, it's not the way this situation usually goes. usually it's the rape victim or marginalized person who will end up leaving.
- gtirloni 4y ago
  According to the law in most places, there are no such places that tolerate an "open nazi" because being a nazi is a crime. There are law against antisemitic speech. There are also laws against racism. You don't have to make a decision at all, the decision has been made for you. Well, I guess you have to make a decision to follow the law or not but that's an extreme. If someone in a conference is open about being a nazi or a racist, you call the police, maybe collect some evidence first, etc. Whatever is needed in your country to report an offense. And yes, I agree... usually the victim will leave the place, not having enough energy to be an activist on top of dealing with their troubles and/or fearing the consequences. That's unfortunate. But that's where it gets complicated, for the victim. Not for the conference organizers.
  - asddubs 4y ago
    i guess, i feel that's missing the point of the example, though. Like I could have said open racist (which is not against the law as you imply) instead, i just picked a random example. But you are making the decision that this is something for the victim to deal with, not the organizers. That's not at all a given by default. As you yourself point out, the same standard is not applied to nazis, so why pedophile rapists? If you are in a position of power it is your job to make these decisions one way or the other, it's not a foregone conclusion.
    - gtirloni 4y ago

gtirloni 4y ago

Is being a black person a crime? Can you serve time for being black? Unless this is true, your comparison between being black and being a rapist isn't valid.

gray_-_wolf 4y ago
> Can you serve time for being black? Well, in USA many people served lifetime sentence of forced labor for being black, so I guess the answer is "yes"?
- gtirloni 4y ago
  It's not. Nobody in 2022 serves sentences for being black, according to the law (unless the justice system made a mistake). It was a rethorical question.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
hexomancer 4y ago
What if I was uncomfortable with a homosexual coworker (and homosexuality actualy is a crime in my country). Would that be OK?
- becquerel 4y ago
  You are mistakenly (or deliberately, I guess) conflating ethics with legality. Rape is different from homosexuality because homosexuality isn't harmful or morally wrong.
  - hexomancer 4y ago
    My parent post specifically used the word "crime" my response was to show that "being a crime" is not a good reason. Also morality is subjective. For example, the government of my country argues that homosexuality is immoral (obviously I disagree). So the question is whose moral are we considering? Your personal morality? Mine? And is it moral to ostracize someone from society because of a crime they have been punished for?
    - ModernMech 4y ago
      > So the question is whose moral are we considering? Your personal morality? Mine? The morals of the community in question. The laws and customs of unrelated countries or communities are immaterial to the decisions of this particular community. > And is it moral to ostracize someone from society because of a crime they have been punished for? It's one thing to ostracize someone from society entirely. It's much less extreme for one particular community to say that someone with a track record of abusing authority or positions of trust shouldn't be put in a position of authority or trust. There are only a limited number of positions of authority in this community, and plenty of people who are perhaps more deserving of that position who don't have a track record of abusing such positions. It was noted that this person received financial support from the conference. Maybe that didn't need to happen, given there are others who were not financially supported?
      - hexomancer 4y ago
        > The morals of the community in question. The laws and customs of unrelated countries or communities are immaterial to the decisions of this particular community. So it is OK for me to demand a homosexual co-worker be fired if the community of my workspace is homophobic?
        ModernMech 4y ago
        In your country I guess it would be lawful, but I personally wouldn't say it's morally okay. For instance, I have no problem with the Catholic church banning gay priests. But I'm not outraged because doing so isn't banning gays from society.

asddubs 4y ago

it's the paradox of tolerance. a jewish person might be unwilling to work in a place that tolerates an open nazi, and a racist might be unwilling to work with a black person. The point is that you have to make a decision at the end of the day, because not making a decision is also making a decision. And usually it's not the people who hate black people who will choose to leave. So while this is an example where you would obviously not want to respect the wish of the person uncomfortable working with someone else, it's not the way this situation usually goes. usually it's the rape victim or marginalized person who will end up leaving.

gtirloni 4y ago
According to the law in most places, there are no such places that tolerate an "open nazi" because being a nazi is a crime. There are law against antisemitic speech. There are also laws against racism. You don't have to make a decision at all, the decision has been made for you. Well, I guess you have to make a decision to follow the law or not but that's an extreme. If someone in a conference is open about being a nazi or a racist, you call the police, maybe collect some evidence first, etc. Whatever is needed in your country to report an offense. And yes, I agree... usually the victim will leave the place, not having enough energy to be an activist on top of dealing with their troubles and/or fearing the consequences. That's unfortunate. But that's where it gets complicated, for the victim. Not for the conference organizers.
- asddubs 4y ago
  i guess, i feel that's missing the point of the example, though. Like I could have said open racist (which is not against the law as you imply) instead, i just picked a random example. But you are making the decision that this is something for the victim to deal with, not the organizers. That's not at all a given by default. As you yourself point out, the same standard is not applied to nazis, so why pedophile rapists? If you are in a position of power it is your job to make these decisions one way or the other, it's not a foregone conclusion.
  - gtirloni 4y ago