5 ms·

Insane that something like "Diversity / Inclusion" is ranked as second when there are real issues with Rust (I say, as a Rust programmer that enjoys the lang).

by oxff 4y ago

Ygg2 4y ago
Tbh I'm surprised it's an issue. Rust community is small and thus mostly welcoming, plus there were lots of non-binary programmers. Did that change while I wasn't looking?
- brabel 4y ago
  From the post: > Rust's diversity numbers are terrible. They are even terrible compared to the tech industry, which is terrible to begin with. I guess they have real numbers about it, but did not share. I am also surprised because the Rust Foundation staff itself seems pretty "diverse"[1] (at least the male/female rate... nearly everyone seems white though), yet it seems they still didn't manage to make the Rust community as diverse. I guess you can't just "wish" things into existence... systems programming has always been (mostly white/asian) male-dominated and Rust can't change that by itself. [1] https://foundation.rust-lang.org/about/ https://foundation.rust-lang.org/about/
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    > I guess you can't just "wish" things into existence... systems programming has always been (mostly white/asian) male-dominated and Rust can't change that by itself. The FLOSS community, by and large, is also known to be a lot less diverse than the tech industry as a whole. I'm pretty sure that both are significant factors. OTOH, it's quite likely that Rust is already doing better than the C/C++ community on these metrics, which is perhaps the more meaningful comparison.
  - Thiez 4y ago
    They have real numbers, and they did not share. Several questions about it were included in the annual survey of 2021, but they chose not to share these numbers with the community, claiming "an over-abundance of caution" as their reasons. One possible stated consequence for sharing these numbers was "some anti-lgbt group finds the data, decides the numbers are significant, and starts targeting local Rust meetups". Now that the article claims that the numbers are "even terrible compared to the tech industry", this hypothetical consequence seems rather silly. See here for more information: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vhvb4m/2021_annual_survey_report/idae8h1/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vhvb4m/2021_annual_su...
kryptiskt 4y ago
They're not ranked, they're ordered by theme.
benreesman 4y ago
It's with a grudging sort of respect but nonetheless a massive respect that I acknowledge that Rust is the best-marketed thing on the Internet in my 30 years on it. The organization, sophistication, and effectiveness of the Rust marketing vehicle would trivially win political contests as big as a United States Senate race. vi/emacs, c/c++/java flame wars are as old as dirt, just like left/right politics in any polity you care to name with ballot stations. But where I live in the US, e.g. MAGA (or it's prototype "Tea Party") was Something New, and those that failed to realized that we'd changed paradigms got, pardon my francais, fucking clobbered.
hyperman1 4y ago
I'd love to be able to go to a model of: You like Rust? Welcome! On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog. If you want to do something cool, I don't care if you're male/female/nonbinary/black/... You can be an purple with orange speckled snail, for all I care. Now I've seen how e.g. some female gamers were treated, and it wasn't pretty. You should be able to play a game online, without being invited for sex or screamed at every few minutes. That kind of behaviour is very clearly not OK. But neither is it OK for people to scream their sexual preferences around and demand my attention for it. Go ahead, fuck with who you want, but leave me out of it. Give me the permission to not care about your gender identity. Starting to scream at people because they think 'people who menstruate' is ridiculous, that's also not OK. So please, do something cool, react if you notice something not OK. But also care for individuals, leave room for multiple opinions and don't start a witch hunt for any minor or even imagined faux pass. Live and let live.
- JBits 4y ago
  I don't understand what you're talking about. I've never come across someone in the Rust community screaming their sexual preferences, unless you think the occasional person mentioning it in their Twitter profile is a big problem.
  - hyperman1 4y ago
    I am not aware of anything specific in the rust community, and don't think I've ever read someone's twitter profile. But there is a bigger movement around woke/lgbt, especially in the USA, and political parts of ict groups are very much subscribers to this view. I think it's weird for rust to even have stats about it, just like I would think rust to be weird to have stats about who is a coffee/thea/cola/nonternary drinker. It should not be relevant. Feel free to write about your preferred drink in your Twitter profile. If you personally come over to me, I'll make sure to have that drink in my house, otherwise I'll perform the noble art of not giving a fuck.
- fnord123 4y ago
  There is an enormous and probably diverse online peanut gallery for Rust. I think the concern is more about the diversity of contributors - many of these people meet in person. So the dogs and purple with orange speckled snails will be found out as such. Making sure people feel safe both online and in meatspace is important. There is also a huge amount of imposter syndrome kicking about. It's important to garden new contributors of all kinds to make sure the best people can grow. While I have no data, I'd easily believe that dogs and snails have way more and severe imposter syndrome than cis white hetero males. So if we do want to make sure that all kinds of people can break through there's little harm in keeping tabs on the issue. There are probably other impediments to contributing that I don't even know about. They should also be found and addressed, right?

Insane that something like "Diversity / Inclusion" is ranked as second when there are real issues with Rust (I say, as a Rust programmer that enjoys the lang).

by oxff 4y ago

Insane that something like "Diversity / Inclusion" is ranked as second when there are real issues with Rust (I say, as a Rust programmer that enjoys the lang).

Ygg2 4y ago

Tbh I'm surprised it's an issue. Rust community is small and thus mostly welcoming, plus there were lots of non-binary programmers. Did that change while I wasn't looking?

brabel 4y ago
From the post: > Rust's diversity numbers are terrible. They are even terrible compared to the tech industry, which is terrible to begin with. I guess they have real numbers about it, but did not share. I am also surprised because the Rust Foundation staff itself seems pretty "diverse"[1] (at least the male/female rate... nearly everyone seems white though), yet it seems they still didn't manage to make the Rust community as diverse. I guess you can't just "wish" things into existence... systems programming has always been (mostly white/asian) male-dominated and Rust can't change that by itself. [1] https://foundation.rust-lang.org/about/ https://foundation.rust-lang.org/about/
- zozbot234 4y ago
  > I guess you can't just "wish" things into existence... systems programming has always been (mostly white/asian) male-dominated and Rust can't change that by itself. The FLOSS community, by and large, is also known to be a lot less diverse than the tech industry as a whole. I'm pretty sure that both are significant factors. OTOH, it's quite likely that Rust is already doing better than the C/C++ community on these metrics, which is perhaps the more meaningful comparison.
- Thiez 4y ago
  They have real numbers, and they did not share. Several questions about it were included in the annual survey of 2021, but they chose not to share these numbers with the community, claiming "an over-abundance of caution" as their reasons. One possible stated consequence for sharing these numbers was "some anti-lgbt group finds the data, decides the numbers are significant, and starts targeting local Rust meetups". Now that the article claims that the numbers are "even terrible compared to the tech industry", this hypothetical consequence seems rather silly. See here for more information: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vhvb4m/2021_annual_survey_report/idae8h1/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/vhvb4m/2021_annual_su...

kryptiskt 4y ago

They're not ranked, they're ordered by theme.

benreesman 4y ago

It's with a grudging sort of respect but nonetheless a massive respect that I acknowledge that Rust is the best-marketed thing on the Internet in my 30 years on it. The organization, sophistication, and effectiveness of the Rust marketing vehicle would trivially win political contests as big as a United States Senate race. vi/emacs, c/c++/java flame wars are as old as dirt, just like left/right politics in any polity you care to name with ballot stations. But where I live in the US, e.g. MAGA (or it's prototype "Tea Party") was Something New, and those that failed to realized that we'd changed paradigms got, pardon my francais, fucking clobbered.

hyperman1 4y ago

I'd love to be able to go to a model of: You like Rust? Welcome! On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog. If you want to do something cool, I don't care if you're male/female/nonbinary/black/... You can be an purple with orange speckled snail, for all I care. Now I've seen how e.g. some female gamers were treated, and it wasn't pretty. You should be able to play a game online, without being invited for sex or screamed at every few minutes. That kind of behaviour is very clearly not OK. But neither is it OK for people to scream their sexual preferences around and demand my attention for it. Go ahead, fuck with who you want, but leave me out of it. Give me the permission to not care about your gender identity. Starting to scream at people because they think 'people who menstruate' is ridiculous, that's also not OK. So please, do something cool, react if you notice something not OK. But also care for individuals, leave room for multiple opinions and don't start a witch hunt for any minor or even imagined faux pass. Live and let live.

JBits 4y ago
I don't understand what you're talking about. I've never come across someone in the Rust community screaming their sexual preferences, unless you think the occasional person mentioning it in their Twitter profile is a big problem.
- hyperman1 4y ago
  I am not aware of anything specific in the rust community, and don't think I've ever read someone's twitter profile. But there is a bigger movement around woke/lgbt, especially in the USA, and political parts of ict groups are very much subscribers to this view. I think it's weird for rust to even have stats about it, just like I would think rust to be weird to have stats about who is a coffee/thea/cola/nonternary drinker. It should not be relevant. Feel free to write about your preferred drink in your Twitter profile. If you personally come over to me, I'll make sure to have that drink in my house, otherwise I'll perform the noble art of not giving a fuck.
fnord123 4y ago
There is an enormous and probably diverse online peanut gallery for Rust. I think the concern is more about the diversity of contributors - many of these people meet in person. So the dogs and purple with orange speckled snails will be found out as such. Making sure people feel safe both online and in meatspace is important. There is also a huge amount of imposter syndrome kicking about. It's important to garden new contributors of all kinds to make sure the best people can grow. While I have no data, I'd easily believe that dogs and snails have way more and severe imposter syndrome than cis white hetero males. So if we do want to make sure that all kinds of people can break through there's little harm in keeping tabs on the issue. There are probably other impediments to contributing that I don't even know about. They should also be found and addressed, right?