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Exactly, I remember when the internet was heralded as a step against racism by removing any bias you normally see - like skin colour, accent, etc. But now a se

Exactly, I remember when the internet was heralded as a step against racism by removing any bias you normally see - like skin colour, accent, etc. But now a set of Americans seem dedicated to shoehorn it in. It seems bizarre that everyone from Donald Trump to King Charles to a Polish farmer are seen as identical and homogeneous in their race-based politics as just "white".

capableweb 4y ago
People keep wanting to have profile pictures of their "real" selfs and talk about their private life with the same people they write code with. That didn't use to happen. Back in the day, there wasn't even any avatars, just emails! Then people started using nicknames, that was fine. And first when avatars appeared, we used images of something else. Myspace and Facebook brought up the whole "I have to be the same person I'm online as I'm in the real-life" syndrome, and now we have what you described above.
- FiberBundle 4y ago
  You can still be anonymous in open source projects. My experience is that nobody cares about your background or ethnicity or (at least) wants to know about your background/ethnicity. If you're a valuable contributor you will be respected instantly. Also if you're serious about wanting to learn (and have a fairly good foundation of basic skills) you will find people willing to help you. So if you're really worried about being discriminated against, but are serious about becoming a better programmer, just stay anonymous on github.
  - capableweb 4y ago
    I know this (this very account is one anonymous profile of mine) and many others know this. But bigger and bigger slice of the whole internet ecosystem is moving from "anonymous internet profiles" into "my real life profile but on the internet". Platforms are even starting to enforce that policy as well. My comment was more an observation on how others act, rather than how I act.
- xoralkindi 4y ago
  I like the idea of not bringing "irl" problems in cyberspace, but at the same time I can't help but worry that this does not address the root cause and will only perpetuate and normalize these problems. What we need is a change in the consciousness of the people, one should not think of the negative things that can occur by using their face as a an avatar, in this day and age we should not have such problems. But yes on a level meritocracy should be the goal, your code should be what matters.
- pas 4y ago
  Aaand back in the day before that it was US middle class guys (and some gals) working in offices. Times change, but some problems remain. Obviously it's not the Rust (or broader IT) community's sole responsibility to solve every kind of social ill, but it seems enough people have experienced problems that show that there's room for improvement. Though it's not something that is a homogeneous problem. So it's unsurprising that a large part of the community just doesn't see it.
traceroute66 4y ago
> But now a set of Americans seem dedicated to shoehorn it in. I agree. Its like the whole "master/slave" brouhaha. The Americans just became obsessed over renaming anything anywhere that used the term. Meanwhile, the rest of the world doesn't make dumb extrapolations. They understand that calling one server "master" and one server "slave" does not mean you're some sort of right-wing racist nutter. I'm sure if you took at trip to the African continent and visited various countries and asked those who actually live there about it, they'd much rather you talk about how they can get more financing for their organisation, how they can get more robust and affordable internet connectivity .... or indeed how they can get a COVID vaccine, especially seeing as the patents were not lifted and the promises of donations never materialised in any significant number. But no, the Americans are too busy with political correctness and willy-waving sending billionaires and their rockets into space.
- pas 4y ago
  Yep. GitHub probably spent more on the "master -> main" rename than on offering free education to disadvantaged people of color. (Though they like to parade open source's impact as their impact https://socialimpact.github.com/ https://socialimpact.github.com/ ) However the community did it because it was asked to do it by people. It was fairly easy to do, it was clear and well defined. So why not? The ask was very likely sincere, even if it was useless in the grand scheme of things. Should the community (git maintainers, various project maintainers) score every request based on its social impact or take requests at face value? (I'd argue that they have to do a little bit of both, and if something is a low-hanging fruit, eg. big impact low effort, then why not do it?)
- McP 4y ago
  Computing is full of metaphors like "kill". My 7 year old niece looked over my shoulder as I was writing this and said "kill!?" with a look of disgust! Disgust! I suspect that this reaction is typical of many females getting started in computing. Could it be a small part of why there are so few women in computing? My niece gets very excited when she sees me use commands she knows like ls, cd, cat (especially cat!). The fact that she could grow up to become a DBA and won't have to talk about "dumb slaves" is something I celebrate. It's not nearly as important as <insert whataboutism here> but it's progress. (If you or someone you know has been victimised because they're comfortable with existing terminology then I'm sorry for that, really. If you feel that changing terminology is a waste of time that is OK. If you don't want to rename your branches then no-one should give you a hard time about it.)

capableweb 4y ago

People keep wanting to have profile pictures of their "real" selfs and talk about their private life with the same people they write code with. That didn't use to happen. Back in the day, there wasn't even any avatars, just emails! Then people started using nicknames, that was fine. And first when avatars appeared, we used images of something else. Myspace and Facebook brought up the whole "I have to be the same person I'm online as I'm in the real-life" syndrome, and now we have what you described above.

FiberBundle 4y ago
You can still be anonymous in open source projects. My experience is that nobody cares about your background or ethnicity or (at least) wants to know about your background/ethnicity. If you're a valuable contributor you will be respected instantly. Also if you're serious about wanting to learn (and have a fairly good foundation of basic skills) you will find people willing to help you. So if you're really worried about being discriminated against, but are serious about becoming a better programmer, just stay anonymous on github.
- capableweb 4y ago
  I know this (this very account is one anonymous profile of mine) and many others know this. But bigger and bigger slice of the whole internet ecosystem is moving from "anonymous internet profiles" into "my real life profile but on the internet". Platforms are even starting to enforce that policy as well. My comment was more an observation on how others act, rather than how I act.
xoralkindi 4y ago
I like the idea of not bringing "irl" problems in cyberspace, but at the same time I can't help but worry that this does not address the root cause and will only perpetuate and normalize these problems. What we need is a change in the consciousness of the people, one should not think of the negative things that can occur by using their face as a an avatar, in this day and age we should not have such problems. But yes on a level meritocracy should be the goal, your code should be what matters.
pas 4y ago
Aaand back in the day before that it was US middle class guys (and some gals) working in offices. Times change, but some problems remain. Obviously it's not the Rust (or broader IT) community's sole responsibility to solve every kind of social ill, but it seems enough people have experienced problems that show that there's room for improvement. Though it's not something that is a homogeneous problem. So it's unsurprising that a large part of the community just doesn't see it.

traceroute66 4y ago

> But now a set of Americans seem dedicated to shoehorn it in. I agree. Its like the whole "master/slave" brouhaha. The Americans just became obsessed over renaming anything anywhere that used the term. Meanwhile, the rest of the world doesn't make dumb extrapolations. They understand that calling one server "master" and one server "slave" does not mean you're some sort of right-wing racist nutter. I'm sure if you took at trip to the African continent and visited various countries and asked those who actually live there about it, they'd much rather you talk about how they can get more financing for their organisation, how they can get more robust and affordable internet connectivity .... or indeed how they can get a COVID vaccine, especially seeing as the patents were not lifted and the promises of donations never materialised in any significant number. But no, the Americans are too busy with political correctness and willy-waving sending billionaires and their rockets into space.

pas 4y ago
Yep. GitHub probably spent more on the "master -> main" rename than on offering free education to disadvantaged people of color. (Though they like to parade open source's impact as their impact https://socialimpact.github.com/ https://socialimpact.github.com/ ) However the community did it because it was asked to do it by people. It was fairly easy to do, it was clear and well defined. So why not? The ask was very likely sincere, even if it was useless in the grand scheme of things. Should the community (git maintainers, various project maintainers) score every request based on its social impact or take requests at face value? (I'd argue that they have to do a little bit of both, and if something is a low-hanging fruit, eg. big impact low effort, then why not do it?)
McP 4y ago
Computing is full of metaphors like "kill". My 7 year old niece looked over my shoulder as I was writing this and said "kill!?" with a look of disgust! Disgust! I suspect that this reaction is typical of many females getting started in computing. Could it be a small part of why there are so few women in computing? My niece gets very excited when she sees me use commands she knows like ls, cd, cat (especially cat!). The fact that she could grow up to become a DBA and won't have to talk about "dumb slaves" is something I celebrate. It's not nearly as important as <insert whataboutism here> but it's progress. (If you or someone you know has been victimised because they're comfortable with existing terminology then I'm sorry for that, really. If you feel that changing terminology is a waste of time that is OK. If you don't want to rename your branches then no-one should give you a hard time about it.)