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It's the abortion debate. I'm against abortion. The way I see it is a person has rights no matter the person's age. Earlier in development just means younger.

alexvoda 4y ago
In that case you should very much be in support of this research. According to you, those dead embryos that resulted from failed pregnancies have just as much a claim to healthcare as anyone else. This researchers that problem.
- Thorrez 4y ago
  I agree we should be doing research to promote healthy life, but I don't agree that we should be creating people for the purposes of killing them and deriving scientific info from their deaths. The research in this article is fine, it's on mice. If it were to be done on humans it wouldn't be. It's not ok to kill an innocent person, regardless of how much scientific data that provides and how many lives that data might save.
implements 4y ago
Everyone agrees people have rights, it’s that they disagree on what constitutes a person. Some religious people currently believe a person exists at the point of fertilisation, but they used to believe ‘ensoulment’ happened some weeks after. One question to ponder - “Why would God give personhood to a fertilised egg that (via omniscience) he knew was fated not to be carried to term?”. If earthly life is essentially a test of moral virtue (“Here’s free-will, let’s see what you do with it”) then “eggs as persons” doesn’t really make sense - the test can’t start / a true person doesn’t exist until it has some form of effective agency.
- NotYourLawyer 4y ago
  Plenty of non-religious people think life begins before birth.
- Thorrez 4y ago
  Yeah I agree it's about personhood. That same argument applies to all the babies who die between being born and turning 1. It's more an argument against God than an argument against rights starting from the first moment of life. If we assume God doesn't exist, then the argument doesn't really work. If we assume God does exist, one possible rebuttal is that the purpose of life isn't to test moral virtue. For example the purpose of life could be to provide an opportunity to know, love, and glorify God. But it's just an opportunity, not the only opportunity. After death there continue to be opportunities for that, so people who die immediately after ensoulment still have an opportunity for that.
colanderman 4y ago
Not an abortion debate -- a human exceptionalism debate. That is -- what makes a human embryo special compared to a mouse embryo? (Beside what it eventually grows into -- since that is not allowed to happen in these experiments.)
- Thorrez 4y ago
  Ok, is there a difference between killing an adult human and killing an adult chicken? I argue humans have inherent dignity and rights, and animals don't.
  - colanderman 4y ago
    These aren't adults, they're embryos. What differentiates them? Mere anthrocentrism is not a logical argument.
    - Thorrez 4y ago
      We're back to my original comment: the human embryo is just a young human. The mouse embryo isn't. Saying we're going to kill it before it grows up ("since that is not allowed to happen in these experiments") doesn't make the human embryo less of a young human.

alexvoda 4y ago

In that case you should very much be in support of this research. According to you, those dead embryos that resulted from failed pregnancies have just as much a claim to healthcare as anyone else. This researchers that problem.

Thorrez 4y ago
I agree we should be doing research to promote healthy life, but I don't agree that we should be creating people for the purposes of killing them and deriving scientific info from their deaths. The research in this article is fine, it's on mice. If it were to be done on humans it wouldn't be. It's not ok to kill an innocent person, regardless of how much scientific data that provides and how many lives that data might save.

implements 4y ago

Everyone agrees people have rights, it’s that they disagree on what constitutes a person. Some religious people currently believe a person exists at the point of fertilisation, but they used to believe ‘ensoulment’ happened some weeks after. One question to ponder - “Why would God give personhood to a fertilised egg that (via omniscience) he knew was fated not to be carried to term?”. If earthly life is essentially a test of moral virtue (“Here’s free-will, let’s see what you do with it”) then “eggs as persons” doesn’t really make sense - the test can’t start / a true person doesn’t exist until it has some form of effective agency.

NotYourLawyer 4y ago
Plenty of non-religious people think life begins before birth.
Thorrez 4y ago
Yeah I agree it's about personhood. That same argument applies to all the babies who die between being born and turning 1. It's more an argument against God than an argument against rights starting from the first moment of life. If we assume God doesn't exist, then the argument doesn't really work. If we assume God does exist, one possible rebuttal is that the purpose of life isn't to test moral virtue. For example the purpose of life could be to provide an opportunity to know, love, and glorify God. But it's just an opportunity, not the only opportunity. After death there continue to be opportunities for that, so people who die immediately after ensoulment still have an opportunity for that.

colanderman 4y ago

Not an abortion debate -- a human exceptionalism debate. That is -- what makes a human embryo special compared to a mouse embryo? (Beside what it eventually grows into -- since that is not allowed to happen in these experiments.)

Thorrez 4y ago
Ok, is there a difference between killing an adult human and killing an adult chicken? I argue humans have inherent dignity and rights, and animals don't.
- colanderman 4y ago
  These aren't adults, they're embryos. What differentiates them? Mere anthrocentrism is not a logical argument.
  - Thorrez 4y ago
    We're back to my original comment: the human embryo is just a young human. The mouse embryo isn't. Saying we're going to kill it before it grows up ("since that is not allowed to happen in these experiments") doesn't make the human embryo less of a young human.