8 ms·

I suspect we will find out at some point in the next 25 to 50 years. Somebody, somewhere, is going to give it a good try. As in not stop at just the embryo st

by Tozen 4y ago

I suspect we will find out at some point in the next 25 to 50 years. Somebody, somewhere, is going to give it a good try. As in not stop at just the embryo stage, but make fully functional living beings, regardless of whatever laws exist. The ramifications of "synthetic life", will sure to be staggering. This was covered a bit in the Blade Runner Sci-Fi, but what real Replicants would be like and what they will do with them, might be wilder than we could imagine.

tsimionescu 4y ago
> Somebody, somewhere, is going to give it a good try. People always say this, and yet the universal ban on human cloning has, at least so far, held strong and prevented further research more or less entirely.
- nomel 4y ago
  Primates have been cloned [1], human embryos have been cloned (supposedly) [2], and there are confirmed gene edited babies [3]. But, I doubt the existence of a ban means humans haven't been cloned, because I have trouble believing that a group that would successfully clone a human would be dumb enough to tell the world, state sponsored or not. 1. https://www.science.org/content/article/these-monkey-twins-are-first-primate-clones-made-method-developed-dolly https://www.science.org/content/article/these-monkey-twins-a... 2. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2009-02/04/content_7443166.htm http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2009-02/04/content_7443166... 3. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/08/cloning-crispr-he-jiankui-china-biotech-boom-could-transform-lives-destroy-them/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/08/cloning-crispr-he-jiank...
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    Primates are not humans, cloning embryos for stem cell research is different from creating human clones, and the scientist who produced the two CRISPR-edited children went to jail, and he and his associates are banned for life from working in this type of research or even providing care in this area.
    - terminalcommand 4y ago
      Aren't primates at least similar to humans? We're both mammals, have similar physical characteristiscs. Why shouldn't cloning people work? I come from a law background so I am not familiar with the science. I've heard biological goods such as stem cells, eggs, spermia etc. are becoming very valuable and they are not very protected. I suppose underground groups could easily get they're hands on whatever they need. Securing illegal goods from a physician doing IVF on humans could be all they need.
    - nomel 4y ago
      > Primates are not humans Those specific primates weren't human, but humans are primates [1]. Here's a quote from the Boyalife CEO, before the ban in China [2]: > The technology is already there," Xu said. "If this is allowed, I don't think there are other companies better than Boyalife that make better technology." > The firm does not currently engage in human cloning activities, Xu said, adding that it has to be "self-restrained" because of possible adverse reaction. I don't believe laws have the ability to stop greed, or the desire for longevity (organs [3] without lifelong immunosuppressant therapy is very appealing). They just add a risk factor. This is why criminals still exist in the world. 1. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-are-humans-primates-97419056/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-are-humans... 2.https://www.mtv.com/news/43bwd7/chinese-scientist-clone-humans-ethics https://www.mtv.com/news/43bwd7/chinese-scientist-clone-huma... 3. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-detainees-tribunal-concludes-n1018646 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests...
      - tsimionescu 4y ago
        We shall see, but illegal research is not the same as other types of crimes - it requires vastly more resources and people, and it may not pay for a long time. Now, if animal cloning becomes commonplace, I do believe it will be way easier for someone to sneak in human cloning alongside it.
        nomel 4y ago
        > illegal research is not the same as other types of crimes - it requires vastly more resources and people, and it may not pay for a long time. This is my point, and exactly why I don’t think we would know if it were happening right now.
- redanddead 4y ago
  I think this is only true because people don't know how/the tools have been restricted/the freedom not given to people I think what the above person is saying is that one day, even if people try to restrict the ability, technology will advance to a point where anybody will be able to do it. What do we do then?
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    The point of banning research is exactly to prevent this eventuality. Technology doesn't advance by itself: someone has to be actively advancing it.
    - haimez 4y ago
      Technology does advance regardless of your ability to ban it, because bans only form a system that locally restricts research- but globally, research will march forward somewhere. Banning research on a topic is fundamentally like burning books- but enforcing some consistent concept of ethics within a field of research is critical.
      - tsimionescu 4y ago
        Again, you claim that, but evidence shows that banning research on human cloning has indeed stopped it from happening, even though a sheep was successfully cloned almost 30 years ago (and the technology is not significantly different).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
sacrosancty 4y ago
Why would we abuse them? We treat disabled people OK, don't we? What exactly is your fear? Some kind of prejudice against people who were born through different procedures? We already have test tube babies walking among us and nobody mistreats them.
- mola 4y ago
  "testube babies" have parents. These will have owners. I think it's a valid fear that once someone is able to create living things out of nothing, they'll treat them as products and tools We already do it with animals....
  - hutzlibu 4y ago
    Oh and of course patent it. And build in copy protection meassures, meaning someone cloning your "tools" would result in not working products, aka death or disabled
  - practice9 4y ago
    There is a book by Ned and Constance Sublette called "The American Slave Coast" that goes deep into detail how slavery worked in USA. It was essentially same as what you're saying, slaves were considered a self-replicating financial product and a tool for work
  - sacrosancty 4y ago
    Who says they'll be property and not have the same rights as normal people? Slavery was banned. If this becomes so objectionable, it'll be banned too. Why are all you people assuming laws and civilization will stop existing in the future? Are you afraid that future people might not share your current political views? Get over yourself and let them have their own sovereignty and vote for what they want.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- ben_w 4y ago
  That's the best case, even though "not abusing them" is a low hurdle. Such life would not be limited to human forms. Even with just human forms, if you're going to all the trouble to engineer custom life, why make that life anything other than your idea of perfect? I don't know for sure, but I suspect that a predisposition to obedience to authority figures may be engineered; some would want that in their own children, others in what may be de jure servants and de facto slaves. Last I checked — a few years ago, and this is a fast moving field — we can't currently 3D print large complex living structures, only simple and small because of the oxygen diffusion limit; if we can engineer around that, even if you still needed to replace the brain with a computer and nerves with metal, you can have a "real life centaur ride" or dragon drones. If you do that but deliberately replace the brain and nerves with electrical equivalents, you have remote controllable meat[0] puppets making bodyguards redundant (the person being protected can just be remote); making worthless eye witness accounts, DNA tests, and fingerprints; and what happened with DeepFake porn then happens IRL with sex workers puppeting everyone and everything from Addams Family's Thing to Westworld LARP. The landscape of possibilities and preferences for these things may be radically altered by other related tech. For example, skin samples can be grown in vitro and transplanted back to a human (IIRC this is already done for severe burns victims), combine with suitable GM (IDK, spider silk perhaps?) and someone could become naturally bullet resistant, radically changing not only the nature of bodyguarding but also soldiering. [0] well, not necessarily meat, it might be made from GM fungus cells or plant cells, but it could be made to look arbitrarily close to or far from any of those things
shireboy 4y ago
Brave New World gets into this a bit as well.
redanddead 4y ago
What do you think is going to happen?

by Tozen 4y ago

tsimionescu 4y ago

> Somebody, somewhere, is going to give it a good try. People always say this, and yet the universal ban on human cloning has, at least so far, held strong and prevented further research more or less entirely.

nomel 4y ago
Primates have been cloned [1], human embryos have been cloned (supposedly) [2], and there are confirmed gene edited babies [3]. But, I doubt the existence of a ban means humans haven't been cloned, because I have trouble believing that a group that would successfully clone a human would be dumb enough to tell the world, state sponsored or not. 1. https://www.science.org/content/article/these-monkey-twins-are-first-primate-clones-made-method-developed-dolly https://www.science.org/content/article/these-monkey-twins-a... 2. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2009-02/04/content_7443166.htm http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2009-02/04/content_7443166... 3. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/08/cloning-crispr-he-jiankui-china-biotech-boom-could-transform-lives-destroy-them/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/08/cloning-crispr-he-jiank...
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  Primates are not humans, cloning embryos for stem cell research is different from creating human clones, and the scientist who produced the two CRISPR-edited children went to jail, and he and his associates are banned for life from working in this type of research or even providing care in this area.
  - terminalcommand 4y ago
    Aren't primates at least similar to humans? We're both mammals, have similar physical characteristiscs. Why shouldn't cloning people work? I come from a law background so I am not familiar with the science. I've heard biological goods such as stem cells, eggs, spermia etc. are becoming very valuable and they are not very protected. I suppose underground groups could easily get they're hands on whatever they need. Securing illegal goods from a physician doing IVF on humans could be all they need.
  - nomel 4y ago
    > Primates are not humans Those specific primates weren't human, but humans are primates [1]. Here's a quote from the Boyalife CEO, before the ban in China [2]: > The technology is already there," Xu said. "If this is allowed, I don't think there are other companies better than Boyalife that make better technology." > The firm does not currently engage in human cloning activities, Xu said, adding that it has to be "self-restrained" because of possible adverse reaction. I don't believe laws have the ability to stop greed, or the desire for longevity (organs [3] without lifelong immunosuppressant therapy is very appealing). They just add a risk factor. This is why criminals still exist in the world. 1. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-are-humans-primates-97419056/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-are-humans... 2.https://www.mtv.com/news/43bwd7/chinese-scientist-clone-humans-ethics https://www.mtv.com/news/43bwd7/chinese-scientist-clone-huma... 3. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-detainees-tribunal-concludes-n1018646 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests...
    - tsimionescu 4y ago
      We shall see, but illegal research is not the same as other types of crimes - it requires vastly more resources and people, and it may not pay for a long time. Now, if animal cloning becomes commonplace, I do believe it will be way easier for someone to sneak in human cloning alongside it.
      - nomel 4y ago
        > illegal research is not the same as other types of crimes - it requires vastly more resources and people, and it may not pay for a long time. This is my point, and exactly why I don’t think we would know if it were happening right now.
redanddead 4y ago
I think this is only true because people don't know how/the tools have been restricted/the freedom not given to people I think what the above person is saying is that one day, even if people try to restrict the ability, technology will advance to a point where anybody will be able to do it. What do we do then?
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  The point of banning research is exactly to prevent this eventuality. Technology doesn't advance by itself: someone has to be actively advancing it.
  - haimez 4y ago
    Technology does advance regardless of your ability to ban it, because bans only form a system that locally restricts research- but globally, research will march forward somewhere. Banning research on a topic is fundamentally like burning books- but enforcing some consistent concept of ethics within a field of research is critical.
    - tsimionescu 4y ago
      Again, you claim that, but evidence shows that banning research on human cloning has indeed stopped it from happening, even though a sheep was successfully cloned almost 30 years ago (and the technology is not significantly different).
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

sacrosancty 4y ago

Why would we abuse them? We treat disabled people OK, don't we? What exactly is your fear? Some kind of prejudice against people who were born through different procedures? We already have test tube babies walking among us and nobody mistreats them.

mola 4y ago
"testube babies" have parents. These will have owners. I think it's a valid fear that once someone is able to create living things out of nothing, they'll treat them as products and tools We already do it with animals....
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  Oh and of course patent it. And build in copy protection meassures, meaning someone cloning your "tools" would result in not working products, aka death or disabled
- practice9 4y ago
  There is a book by Ned and Constance Sublette called "The American Slave Coast" that goes deep into detail how slavery worked in USA. It was essentially same as what you're saying, slaves were considered a self-replicating financial product and a tool for work
- sacrosancty 4y ago
  Who says they'll be property and not have the same rights as normal people? Slavery was banned. If this becomes so objectionable, it'll be banned too. Why are all you people assuming laws and civilization will stop existing in the future? Are you afraid that future people might not share your current political views? Get over yourself and let them have their own sovereignty and vote for what they want.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
ben_w 4y ago
That's the best case, even though "not abusing them" is a low hurdle. Such life would not be limited to human forms. Even with just human forms, if you're going to all the trouble to engineer custom life, why make that life anything other than your idea of perfect? I don't know for sure, but I suspect that a predisposition to obedience to authority figures may be engineered; some would want that in their own children, others in what may be de jure servants and de facto slaves. Last I checked — a few years ago, and this is a fast moving field — we can't currently 3D print large complex living structures, only simple and small because of the oxygen diffusion limit; if we can engineer around that, even if you still needed to replace the brain with a computer and nerves with metal, you can have a "real life centaur ride" or dragon drones. If you do that but deliberately replace the brain and nerves with electrical equivalents, you have remote controllable meat[0] puppets making bodyguards redundant (the person being protected can just be remote); making worthless eye witness accounts, DNA tests, and fingerprints; and what happened with DeepFake porn then happens IRL with sex workers puppeting everyone and everything from Addams Family's Thing to Westworld LARP. The landscape of possibilities and preferences for these things may be radically altered by other related tech. For example, skin samples can be grown in vitro and transplanted back to a human (IIRC this is already done for severe burns victims), combine with suitable GM (IDK, spider silk perhaps?) and someone could become naturally bullet resistant, radically changing not only the nature of bodyguarding but also soldiering. [0] well, not necessarily meat, it might be made from GM fungus cells or plant cells, but it could be made to look arbitrarily close to or far from any of those things

shireboy 4y ago

Brave New World gets into this a bit as well.

redanddead 4y ago

What do you think is going to happen?