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Apple iPhone spontaneously combusts aboard flight in Australia
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- bradleyland 15y agoLithium-ion batteries contain significant amounts of, you guessed it, lithium. Lithium reacts violently with many other substances. If the battery is damaged or contains a fault, the result is lots of energy released (heat). This danger exists in all devices that contain a Li-Ion battery, which is just about everything these days.
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- mikeash 15y agoSurely the chemistry doesn't matter much. Any energy-dense battery will contain a lot of energy by definition, and it seems improbable that there wouldn't be a way to make it come out faster than normal. This problem will only get worse as battery technology improves.
- bradleyland 15y agoIt matters only in so much that you needn't short a Li-Ion battery to have a violent discharge of heat energy. Shorting any battery will cause it to heat up, but lithium is a potent alkali metal. It reacts violently (as in fire and possible explosion) with water. The moisture in your skin will do just fine. Contrast this with other battery chemistries such as nickel-cadmium, which are practically benign by comparison. Here's a great video illustrating the results of dropping bits of various alkali metals in to a bathtub full of water: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m55kgyApYrY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m55kgyApYrY
- mikeash 15y agoIsn't the low energy density of NiCd batteries the main reason it's so friendly? According to the all-knowing Wikipedia, the best Li-ion batteries are over 4x more energy dense than the best NiCds, so there's over 4x more bang (and presumably 4x more desire to go bang). It does appear that Lithium's reactivity with water is has much more energy release potential than the battery itself does, but from a bit of reading around on the all-knowing internet, this reaction is supposedly fairly gentle. "Lithium's density is only about half that of water so it floats on the surface, gently fizzing and giving off hydrogen. It gradually reacts and disappears, forming a colourless solution of lithium hydroxide." Seems to me that if you physically abuse a battery, it's going to release the energy that it has stored. The only way to really avoid that is to not store so much energy. Or are there battery chemistries that can take abuse without releasing their energy?
- po 15y agoDon't discount the chemistry. Sugar is more energy dense than a Lithium Ion battery and it can obviously be made to release its energy in a very safe and controlled manner. Alkaline batteries are almost as energy dense (although not rechargeable) and they are substantially more stable. You can physically abuse a normal battery without it discharging it's energy right? It's the runaway reaction that makes Lithium ion batteries less safe. They require pressure vents and special circuitry to make them safe as they short out if fully discharged after which attempting to charge them is unsafe.
- rhino42 15y agoBut you have to remember that the battery producers aren't especially interested in the safety of the battery (beyond a certain level)-- they care about price, capacity and re-usability.
- mikeash 15y agoSugar itself is not more energy dense than a battery, is it? You need an oxidizer to get energy out of something like sugar. In theory, sugar, gasoline, etc. are much more energy dense, but they need to be very carefully mixed with oxygen to release it all at once. That's why cars aren't generally bombs on wheels even though they theoretically contain sufficient energy to meet that description. The thing with batteries isn't just the amount of energy that they contain, but that it comes entirely pre-mixed and ready for instantaneous release. As far as normal batteries withstanding physical abuse, I don't know. I certainly wouldn't try puncturing or badly overheating a regular battery, and wouldn't be surprised if such treatment caused it to release what it has. I could, of course, be wrong.
- ww520 15y agoTime to ban all cellphones abroad any plane.
- calloc 15y agoDon't give the politicians any ammo ...
- bryanlarsen 15y agoActually, that may finally trigger the backlash that injects some sanity into the process.
- GoodIntentions 15y agoHe was just holding it wrong
- liquid_x 15y agoThis comes to mind: http://xkcd.com/651/ http://xkcd.com/651/ (xkcd, Back Check)
- electromagnetic 15y agoMy major concern is that there's talk about using supercapacitors in portable devices, and notably in cars. The concern being that capacitors are specifically designed to discharge quickly, to the point that a shorted (IE purposefully connecting two terminals) capacitor quickly explodes. The concern being that should we start filling the floors of hybrid vehicles with these, that we are essentially deploying fast moving bombs on our streets, roads and highways, and all we're going to rely on is faith that someone isn't going to put a switched connection between two terminals and wait till they're parked outside a police station, abortion clinic or elementary school and just flip the switch.
- falling 15y agoWell, how is that different from gasoline?
- electromagnetic 15y agoGasoline doesn't explode in 3 seconds flat from a foil wrapper is how it's different.
- bri3d 15y agoLiPo/Li-Ion batteries on airplanes have been an issue for years - see, for example, this article from 2010: http://travelsentry.blogspot.com/2010/08/future-of-flying-with-lithium-ion.html http://travelsentry.blogspot.com/2010/08/future-of-flying-wi... At this point rechargeable lithium-based batteries are a more effective bomb than 90% of the things the TSA has banned - but I suspect we won't see them trying to take away laptops and phones anytime soon.
- Shenglong 15y agoThe TSA are a funny bunch. They've searched through my 80 year-old grandma's bags and confiscated her paint. Yet, when I mentioned that the metal detector failed to detect my solid metal watch, the agent said "it's ok - keep going".
- pyre 15y agoCritical thinking is not part of the curriculum. There's a rule stating that your grandmother's paint must be confiscated, but no rule stating what happens if the metal detector is suspected defective.
- RandallBrown 15y agoyour watch was probably not made of a metal that mattered to them. I know the zipper on my pants is made of metal but it never sets off the detector.
- Shenglong 15y agoIt usually sets the detector off ;)
- brc 15y agoOn a recent flight he check-in person asked me if there was any lithium battery powered devices in the stow-away luggage. I think they are looking for things with big batteries like power drills and things like that, which presumably can pack a punch if they go wrong.
- clumsysmurf 15y agoLithium fires give off a number of toxic gasses like HF. Even if the fire was safely contained, my concern would be if the people on board were exposed to these toxins through inhalation. If a plane is recirculating cabin air, is there a anything a pilot can do to expunge bad air in these cases?
- weaksauce 15y agoA plane does not recirculate all of the cabin air; it recirculates about 50%. Not ideal for the people but it's not like they are trapped with only the air that they have onboard. Also, the recirculated air is HEPA filtered. I would turn up my personal air nozzle if there was something like this in the future. Source: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/cabinair/facts.html http://www.boeing.com/commercial/cabinair/facts.html
- clumsysmurf 15y agoHEPA does not filter gasses like HF.
- Someone 15y agoFor armchair chemists reading this wondering where the Fluor would come from: electrolytes in the batteries typically/often/sometimes contain fluor.
- mtigas 15y agoI find it funny that this was on the front page last night: "Fliers Must Turn Off Devices, but It’s Not Clear Why" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3283768 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3283768 Edit: Not implying anything about a relation to phone use during takeoff and landing (BGR and Australian press release are vague), but I just found it curious.
- ceejayoz 15y agoAircraft engines occasionally catch fire, too, but no one suggests turning them off during takeoff and landing...
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- dholowiski 15y agoThat was kind of the point of that post... it's likely (although we'll probably never know) that the phone would have done the same thing if it was in airplane mode, or even off (since off is rarely really off unless the battery is removed).
- Udo 15y agoDamaged lithium batteries catch fire whether the device is on or not. The original reason why the "no electronics during takeoff or landing" regulation was adopted reaches back to the assumption that you can cause an airliner's nav system to go out of whack with radio signals emitted from consumer electronics. As far as I know this argument has turned out to be pure FUD. However, once a law or regulation is in effect, it is unlikely to ever be rolled back again - this is probably the reason why they simply switched out the rationalization for it to something else: they now say that electronic devices could turn into deadly shrapnel during takeoff and landing. Like so many "security" and "safety" related things today, the fact that they make you switch off your iPod but don't actually force you to pack it away safely requires a certain amount of cognitive dissonance of all parties involved.
- lotharbot 15y ago
- eigenvector 15y agoThank god this didn't happen in the USA. The poor iPhone owner would likely be imprisoned right now.
- potatolicious 15y agoI hate to be That Guy(tm), but only if his skin color was sufficiently dark.
- tptacek 15y agoYou guys are both "that guy" right now. Pretty weird to see it coming from you.
- potatolicious 15y agoCome on. Imagine a bearded Middle Eastern man with a device that's glowing red hot and looking like it's about to explode, on a passenger plane. We live in an era where a few brown-skinned men praying on an airplane is enough to trigger passenger panic and the involvement of the FBI. Do you really think that, if the above happened and the passenger was unfortunately of the wrong race, that passengers would not immediately jump to the "terrorism" conclusion? In the last few years passengers have jumped to that conclusion for way less. [edit] I'm not saying this would've meant throwing someone into Gitmo and throwing away the key. But you have to admit, if this happened to anyone of Middle Eastern descent, there's not a chance he wouldn't have been detained and subject to a barrage of investigations.
- tptacek 15y agoThere is no way anyone who's phone battery ignited on a plane would be in prison, but beyond that, I'm just watching the arc of this thread bend towards dumbness and surprised to see you on it at all. Do I think racism is alive and well all around this country? How about, just guess, and then we can keep the discussion off HN. A few years ago, this might have been a thread about battery chemistry. Now it's about the TSA. I have to believe you think that's sad too.
- racketeer 15y agoThere appears to be a modification to this phone. - Steve Jobs' head is where the apple bite is. Maybe that caused it?
- CGamesPlay 15y agoThat's a good point. Is that a stick affixed to the glass, or did some shop actually disassemble the phone?
- kysol 15y agohttp://www.mod-gadget.com/tribute-stevejobs-iphone-4s-for-steve-rear-panel-mod/ http://www.mod-gadget.com/tribute-stevejobs-iphone-4s-for-st... I do agree that the bite looks like a head, but it doesn't look the same as the one in the link above, especially when you take into account the missing "Steve Jobs" and "1955-2011". I'd put it down to a freakish break line causing fragmentation around the bite. Backplate looks identical to mine (minus the damage).
- mey 15y agoGoogle Lithium Ion Thermal Runaway https://www.google.com/search?q=lithium+ion+thermal+runaway https://www.google.com/search?q=lithium+ion+thermal+runaway
- angusgr 15y agoBunnie Huang's great blog has a post with some nice informative anecdotes about Lithum Ion thermal runaway. http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=220 http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=220
- jergosh 15y agoAssuming if this would've been reported had it happened before, all it means is 'iPhones have one in 70 million chance of combusting.'
- CGamesPlay 15y agoIt seems plausible to me that when the phone came out of airplane mode, it increased radio transmission and/or CPU use. Due to some fault in one of those systems, the thermal throttling didn't kick in, and caused enough heat to melt open the battery. Perhaps the phone was jailbroken and overclocked?
- josephcooney 15y agoPerhaps the phone was jailbroken and overclocked? So it's the user's fault?
- CGamesPlay 15y agoIf it was jailbroken and overclocked, then yes, it was the user's fault.
- josephcooney 15y agoI find it both amusing and telling that that is the only possibility you consider. Perhaps there was a manufacturing flaw in the battery, or it was damaged by dropping, yet 'blame the user' seems to be your knee-jerk reaction.
- CGamesPlay 15y agoI started this by saying "Perhaps" the phone was jailbroken. I don't assume that is the case, I just provide it as a plausible option. Also notice that the Apple logo on the phone back has been modified.
- Groxx 15y agoYowza. But yeah, lithium batteries do this sometimes on airplanes. Some of the smaller ones don't allow lithium batteries in the cabins for this very reason. That it's an iPhone isn't surprising in the least, and hardly front-page material. My theory is that it was already compromised somehow (maybe defective), and the pressure decrease popped the container(s). And to people claiming OMG CASE MOD, look more closely. A crack goes right through the line that would form the glasses. It could be a mod, but I highly doubt it.