5 ms·

Once again Chrome pretends it's a standard that is agreed on, and launched. The status is "Editor's Draft". It's in a prestandard stage.

ramesh31 4y ago
> Once again Chrome pretends it's a standard that is agreed on, and launched. Yup. Same story as PWAs. A very exciting technology that is completely useless without wide browser support.
- abraham 4y ago
  PWAs are a collection of standards, many if which are broadly supported. E.g. service workers. Additionally they are progressive so PWAs should be designed to function without the specific features.
  - ramesh31 4y ago
    > PWAs are a collection of standards, many if which are broadly supported. Yes. Just like WebTransport. But it turns out the ones that matter, aren’t.
    - abraham 4y ago
      You'd have to be more specific. As far as I know the main features service workers are supported everywhere, web manifests are supported everywhere, and as of iOS 16 this week push notifications are supported everywhere.
      - ramesh31 4y ago
        >As far as I know the main features service workers are supported everywhere, web manifests are supported everywhere, and as of iOS 16 this week push notifications are supported everywhere. Manifests are not supported by iOS in any browser, making PWAs DOA for any serious app. And service workers/push notifications were not the promise of PWAs. It was that they would allow for seamless universal apps distributable in any app store (or outside of one). That has not, and will not ever happen without the other browsers onboard with manifests, which is likely never happening.
        jeroenhd 4y ago
        I don't think Apple disabling features that WebKit supports perfectly fine don't make PWAs nonstandard. Every other platform supports these, even Webkit-derived GNOME Web. Firefox removed support for some obscure reason and Apple doesn't want to jeopardise its billion dollar app store but that doesn't mean most devices in the world don't support them. Just throw the PWA into a free, open source, prebuilt wrapper if you must please Apple, it's a lot less work than going the other way around.
        dmitriid 4y ago
        > don't make PWAs nonstandard. There's no such thing as a "PWA standard". There are half a dozen to a dozen various standards, and Safari supports the vast majority of them. > Firefox removed support for some obscure reason Firefox usually clearly documents the reasons > Apple doesn't want to jeopardise its billion dollar app store Ah yes, jeopardizing by ... supporting 99% of what passes for standard PWA features.
        jeroenhd 4y ago
        > There's no such thing as a "PWA standard". There are half a dozen to a dozen various standards, and Safari supports the vast majority of them. The parent talks about the webmanifest standard which is essential for PWAs (it describes the application and its package in a standard way). Safari does not support this, which is a pretty major standard to not support. > Firefox usually clearly documents the reasons I disagree. They state they have done user research (no information available on this) and that there is "little to no benefit" for a feature that was buggy and hidden behind configuration flags while at the same time enabling full support by default in their mobile browser. > Ah yes, jeopardizing by ... supporting 99% of what passes for standard PWA features. ...except for notifications on iOS (which are coming, apparently, but it's taking them until somewhere next year) or A2HS on desktop (which they do support on iOS except in alternative browsers), which are pretty major limitations. The 1% remaining is still significant, the rest of the PWA standards Apple supports are just normal web standards that PWAs happen to use.
AgentME 4y ago
Don't many modern web standards start off with a single browser experimenting and implementing something? This seems like a common criticism when it comes to new features that's disconnected from the reality of how web standards are made. If I remember right, proposals can't even progress to being considered a web standard by the standards groups until after multiple browsers have implemented it.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  > Don't many modern web standards start off with a single browser experimenting and implementing something Yes. Key word: experiment > new features that's disconnected from the reality of how web standards are made Ah yes. Disconnected from reality in which... a standard is not a standard until all parties agree on it, and there are at least two independent implementations before the standard is considered safe to move from experimentation stage. No-no. We live in a new reality where Google couldn't care less about the process and release features with full disregard of any of that.
  - AgentME 4y ago
    Is there anything controversial with WebTransport? I don't understand where you're coming from.

ramesh31 4y ago

> Once again Chrome pretends it's a standard that is agreed on, and launched. Yup. Same story as PWAs. A very exciting technology that is completely useless without wide browser support.

abraham 4y ago
PWAs are a collection of standards, many if which are broadly supported. E.g. service workers. Additionally they are progressive so PWAs should be designed to function without the specific features.
- ramesh31 4y ago
  > PWAs are a collection of standards, many if which are broadly supported. Yes. Just like WebTransport. But it turns out the ones that matter, aren’t.
  - abraham 4y ago
    You'd have to be more specific. As far as I know the main features service workers are supported everywhere, web manifests are supported everywhere, and as of iOS 16 this week push notifications are supported everywhere.
    - ramesh31 4y ago
      >As far as I know the main features service workers are supported everywhere, web manifests are supported everywhere, and as of iOS 16 this week push notifications are supported everywhere. Manifests are not supported by iOS in any browser, making PWAs DOA for any serious app. And service workers/push notifications were not the promise of PWAs. It was that they would allow for seamless universal apps distributable in any app store (or outside of one). That has not, and will not ever happen without the other browsers onboard with manifests, which is likely never happening.
      - jeroenhd 4y ago
        I don't think Apple disabling features that WebKit supports perfectly fine don't make PWAs nonstandard. Every other platform supports these, even Webkit-derived GNOME Web. Firefox removed support for some obscure reason and Apple doesn't want to jeopardise its billion dollar app store but that doesn't mean most devices in the world don't support them. Just throw the PWA into a free, open source, prebuilt wrapper if you must please Apple, it's a lot less work than going the other way around.
        dmitriid 4y ago
        > don't make PWAs nonstandard. There's no such thing as a "PWA standard". There are half a dozen to a dozen various standards, and Safari supports the vast majority of them. > Firefox removed support for some obscure reason Firefox usually clearly documents the reasons > Apple doesn't want to jeopardise its billion dollar app store Ah yes, jeopardizing by ... supporting 99% of what passes for standard PWA features.
        jeroenhd 4y ago
        > There's no such thing as a "PWA standard". There are half a dozen to a dozen various standards, and Safari supports the vast majority of them. The parent talks about the webmanifest standard which is essential for PWAs (it describes the application and its package in a standard way). Safari does not support this, which is a pretty major standard to not support. > Firefox usually clearly documents the reasons I disagree. They state they have done user research (no information available on this) and that there is "little to no benefit" for a feature that was buggy and hidden behind configuration flags while at the same time enabling full support by default in their mobile browser. > Ah yes, jeopardizing by ... supporting 99% of what passes for standard PWA features. ...except for notifications on iOS (which are coming, apparently, but it's taking them until somewhere next year) or A2HS on desktop (which they do support on iOS except in alternative browsers), which are pretty major limitations. The 1% remaining is still significant, the rest of the PWA standards Apple supports are just normal web standards that PWAs happen to use.

AgentME 4y ago

Don't many modern web standards start off with a single browser experimenting and implementing something? This seems like a common criticism when it comes to new features that's disconnected from the reality of how web standards are made. If I remember right, proposals can't even progress to being considered a web standard by the standards groups until after multiple browsers have implemented it.

dmitriid 4y ago
> Don't many modern web standards start off with a single browser experimenting and implementing something Yes. Key word: experiment > new features that's disconnected from the reality of how web standards are made Ah yes. Disconnected from reality in which... a standard is not a standard until all parties agree on it, and there are at least two independent implementations before the standard is considered safe to move from experimentation stage. No-no. We live in a new reality where Google couldn't care less about the process and release features with full disregard of any of that.
- AgentME 4y ago
  Is there anything controversial with WebTransport? I don't understand where you're coming from.