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Perhaps you are right about power companies wanting to sell more power (although it seems like that is not the case for the marginal kWh given all that power co

by elil17 4y ago

Perhaps you are right about power companies wanting to sell more power (although it seems like that is not the case for the marginal kWh given all that power companies do to incentive energy efficiency for their customers). But even so, at least that power would go to something useful (keeping buildings comfortable, purifying water, who knows what) rather than being burned in the crypto-pit.

latchkey 4y ago
I'm getting downvoted on my original comment, sigh HN. > Perhaps you are right about power companies wanting to sell more power (although it seems like that is not the case for the marginal kWh given all that power companies do to incentive energy efficiency for their customers). It is literally called a power company. They offer special rates for large customers. That alone creates a marketplace. > But even so, at least that power would go to something useful (keeping buildings comfortable, purifying water, who knows what) rather than being burned in the crypto-pit. Did you have a choice in where that power went to begin with? No. "No one has the moral authority to tell you what is a good or bad use of energy (ex: watching the Kardashians)" -- https://twitter.com/danheld/status/1479135584685854729?lang=en https://twitter.com/danheld/status/1479135584685854729?lang=...
- simondotau 4y ago
  The parent to your post never asserted “moral authority” around how power is used, only that they think this shift is a good thing in their view.
  - latchkey 4y ago
    > at least that power would go to something useful I consider that a moral opinion.
    - simondotau 4y ago
      Ultimately it wasn’t the grandparent that asserted that proof-of-work Etherium mining wasn’t useful, it was the Etherium blockchain community themselves — which is why they have stopped doing it. It’s not a “moral opinion” to accept someone else’s assessment of the utility of their own actions. Is it a “moral opinion” to state a preference that crude oil is more useful when refined and injected into an ICE vehicle than if it’s burned on site in an oil well fire?
      - latchkey 4y ago
        My point is that it is not your (or my) right to tell anyone what a good use of power is or is not. Simply because we all consume power one way or another. Expressing an opinion is fine... we can all have one of those, but we should be considerate of pot/kettle there.
      - samatman 4y ago
        You have this backward actually, the fact that Ethereum went to great lengths to design a more power-efficient replacement for PoW (rather than, say, doing something else with their lives) shows that PoW was useful to begin with.
        simondotau 4y ago
        The fact that Ethereum went to great lengths to design a more power-efficient replacement for PoW shows that the developers of Etherium derive personal value from an engagement with a technical challenge. It does suggest but doesn't prove that any permutation of the project was/is actually useful.
        samatman 4y ago
        Your definition of useful sucks, and you should feel really bad about that. I don't get too concerned about how you waste my oxygen, but you're making me rethink that decision.
        simondotau 4y ago
- chowells 4y ago
  That tweet thread is 100% wrong. I absolutely do have the moral authority to tell everyone that burning billions of joules per day in a bank of resistive elements and then dumping the heat directly into the atmosphere is morally wrong. It's not even a tough question. It is clearly a malicious (hypothetical) act being done only to hurt others. So if there's an unambiguous case of morally abhorrent energy use, everything else is up for debate. That tweet thread goes off the rails early, as it's clear the author is financially incentivized to not understand the position he is arguing against. So it's no surprise the argument is nonsense.
  - latchkey 4y ago
    It opens a can of worms. If you start telling people how they should or should not use any form of energy, then you have to ͡° ͜ʖ ͡° at yourself first. https://www.lynalden.com/wp-content/uploads/bitcoin-energy-consumption.png https://www.lynalden.com/wp-content/uploads/bitcoin-energy-c... https://www.lynalden.com/bitcoin-energy/ https://www.lynalden.com/bitcoin-energy/
    - simondotau 4y ago
      > then you have to ͡° ͜ʖ ͡° at yourself first Yes, and?
      - latchkey 4y ago
        It is absurd as: your website makes money from Google Adsense and therefore is a waste of power because google is profiting off people advertising crap to others.
        burnished 4y ago
        I'd posit that your argument is ridiculous, but that doesn't make anyone else's silly by default.
        latchkey 4y ago
- shpx 4y ago
  It's not possible to perform any action without using energy, so why not just say "No one has the moral authority to tell [me] what is a good or bad."?
- elil17 4y ago
  There’s a big difference between doing something that’s maybe not the best use of resources, but still serves a purposes, even if it’s just pleasure (ex: watching the Kardashians) and doing something for no reason that makes any sense at all. We should all be judicious with how we use our limited resources. The market often serves to incentivize that good judgement. When the market starts incentivizing waste (e.g. “cryptocurrencies”) that’s when you need to start banning things.

by elil17 4y ago

latchkey 4y ago

I'm getting downvoted on my original comment, sigh HN. > Perhaps you are right about power companies wanting to sell more power (although it seems like that is not the case for the marginal kWh given all that power companies do to incentive energy efficiency for their customers). It is literally called a power company. They offer special rates for large customers. That alone creates a marketplace. > But even so, at least that power would go to something useful (keeping buildings comfortable, purifying water, who knows what) rather than being burned in the crypto-pit. Did you have a choice in where that power went to begin with? No. "No one has the moral authority to tell you what is a good or bad use of energy (ex: watching the Kardashians)" -- https://twitter.com/danheld/status/1479135584685854729?lang=en https://twitter.com/danheld/status/1479135584685854729?lang=...

simondotau 4y ago
The parent to your post never asserted “moral authority” around how power is used, only that they think this shift is a good thing in their view.
- latchkey 4y ago
  > at least that power would go to something useful I consider that a moral opinion.
  - simondotau 4y ago
    Ultimately it wasn’t the grandparent that asserted that proof-of-work Etherium mining wasn’t useful, it was the Etherium blockchain community themselves — which is why they have stopped doing it. It’s not a “moral opinion” to accept someone else’s assessment of the utility of their own actions. Is it a “moral opinion” to state a preference that crude oil is more useful when refined and injected into an ICE vehicle than if it’s burned on site in an oil well fire?
    - latchkey 4y ago
      My point is that it is not your (or my) right to tell anyone what a good use of power is or is not. Simply because we all consume power one way or another. Expressing an opinion is fine... we can all have one of those, but we should be considerate of pot/kettle there.
    - samatman 4y ago
      You have this backward actually, the fact that Ethereum went to great lengths to design a more power-efficient replacement for PoW (rather than, say, doing something else with their lives) shows that PoW was useful to begin with.
      - simondotau 4y ago
        The fact that Ethereum went to great lengths to design a more power-efficient replacement for PoW shows that the developers of Etherium derive personal value from an engagement with a technical challenge. It does suggest but doesn't prove that any permutation of the project was/is actually useful.
        samatman 4y ago
        Your definition of useful sucks, and you should feel really bad about that. I don't get too concerned about how you waste my oxygen, but you're making me rethink that decision.
        simondotau 4y ago
chowells 4y ago
That tweet thread is 100% wrong. I absolutely do have the moral authority to tell everyone that burning billions of joules per day in a bank of resistive elements and then dumping the heat directly into the atmosphere is morally wrong. It's not even a tough question. It is clearly a malicious (hypothetical) act being done only to hurt others. So if there's an unambiguous case of morally abhorrent energy use, everything else is up for debate. That tweet thread goes off the rails early, as it's clear the author is financially incentivized to not understand the position he is arguing against. So it's no surprise the argument is nonsense.
- latchkey 4y ago
  It opens a can of worms. If you start telling people how they should or should not use any form of energy, then you have to ͡° ͜ʖ ͡° at yourself first. https://www.lynalden.com/wp-content/uploads/bitcoin-energy-consumption.png https://www.lynalden.com/wp-content/uploads/bitcoin-energy-c... https://www.lynalden.com/bitcoin-energy/ https://www.lynalden.com/bitcoin-energy/
  - simondotau 4y ago
    > then you have to ͡° ͜ʖ ͡° at yourself first Yes, and?
    - latchkey 4y ago
      It is absurd as: your website makes money from Google Adsense and therefore is a waste of power because google is profiting off people advertising crap to others.
      - burnished 4y ago
        I'd posit that your argument is ridiculous, but that doesn't make anyone else's silly by default.
        latchkey 4y ago
shpx 4y ago
It's not possible to perform any action without using energy, so why not just say "No one has the moral authority to tell [me] what is a good or bad."?
elil17 4y ago
There’s a big difference between doing something that’s maybe not the best use of resources, but still serves a purposes, even if it’s just pleasure (ex: watching the Kardashians) and doing something for no reason that makes any sense at all. We should all be judicious with how we use our limited resources. The market often serves to incentivize that good judgement. When the market starts incentivizing waste (e.g. “cryptocurrencies”) that’s when you need to start banning things.