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> A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. Then again he also said: “If anyone

by goto11 4y ago

> A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. Then again he also said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.

Thorrez 4y ago
Jesus wasn't speaking English. They had different idioms back then. The way I understand it is that "hate" in this context means "love less". You need to love God so much that in comparison to that love, your love for your family and friends and yourself is essentially non-existent. If they in any way would lead you away from God, you need to reject that inclination completely.
- goto11 4y ago
  > The way I understand it is that "hate" in this context means "love less" It means "treat like shit and abandon". You can see this from other examples: > He said to another man, “Follow me.” But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.” Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” > Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.” Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”
  - Thorrez 4y ago
    > He said to another man, “Follow me.” But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.” Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” That man's father is still alive. When he says "bury my father" he means continue living with his father until his father dies and he then becomes fully independent and can have time to follow Jesus. Jesus says don't wait for some long future day, follow me right now. The guy isn't literally walking to the cemetery at that moment to bury his father. > Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.” Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.” Jesus isn't saying we shouldn't have ties to our family. Jesus goes with Peter to visit Peter's mother in law for example, and Jesus keeps in touch with his own mother. In this instance, Jesus sees this guy is making excuses and says we need to stop making excuses. Following God is more important than anything else and if we put off God in favor of family, that's wrong. We should still love our family and treat them with respect, but don't use them as an excuse to avoid following God.
    - goto11 4y ago
      > That man's father is still alive At this point you are just writing fan-fiction. > We should still love our family and treat them with respect, That may be what you believe, which is great, but that is just not what Jesus is saying. Leaving your family without saying goodbye is just a really horrible thing to do.
      - Thorrez 4y ago
        >At this point you are just writing fan-fiction. Ok, looking into it more, it looks like it's not a completely agreed upon point on whether the father is alive or dead[1]. The thing is, you and I, being so far removed and thus unfamiliar with the culture and idioms of the time, don't have a real basis to claim one way or the other whether the father is alive. >Leaving your family without saying goodbye is just a really horrible thing to do. Jesus can see into the man's heart and knows he's making excuses. We don't really know anything about this man, but Jesus was with him frequently, and knows him well. Maybe he doesn't have any close family and is referring to distant cousins. Jesus knows that and we don't. Jesus' disciples don't abandon their family, because we're told of Jesus visiting their families with them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_8:21 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_8:21
        goto11 4y ago
        > Maybe he doesn't have any close family and is referring to distant cousins. You are just making up stories. Of course you are free to make up any story you want if this helps with the cognitive dissonance arising the text.
- WHATDOESIT 4y ago
  The translations include changes to modern words, don't they? Don't tell me you can't see the craziness you're leading yourself into here. And don't tell me you don't see any room for misinterpretation if you are even correct - which you aren't as the other commenter has shown. From another commenter: > A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man And also: > A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. Tell us please how we just misunderstood the context of these two. Or were we supposed to begin reading between the lines now that it doesn't sound so positive?
  - Thorrez 4y ago
    The translations change the individual words, and move words around to fit grammatically, but they tend to be fairly literal. See this literal word by word translation from the original Greek, and see how it's basically the same as the translation previously quoted: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/14-26.htm https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/14-26.htm Neither of those other quotes were from Jesus, they were from Paul. Neither of them say abusing women is ok. I agree that parts of the new testament sound off to modern ears. If you're interested in how those quotes can be interpreted, one example is https://www.thegoodbook.com/blog/interestingthoughts/2019/04/02/unpacking-a-controversial-passage-1-timothy-2/ https://www.thegoodbook.com/blog/interestingthoughts/2019/04...
    - goto11 4y ago
      > Neither of them say abusing women is ok I guess this depends on if you think it is abuse to treat women as subservient beings and deny them their voice. But you must really fear smart women to think this is good thing.
      - Thorrez 4y ago
        That second quote is about church services. It doesn't apply to the workplace, schools, or any place except church services. https://www.crossway.org/articles/what-does-it-mean-that-women-should-remain-quiet-in-church-1-timothy-2/ https://www.crossway.org/articles/what-does-it-mean-that-wom...

by goto11 4y ago

Thorrez 4y ago

Jesus wasn't speaking English. They had different idioms back then. The way I understand it is that "hate" in this context means "love less". You need to love God so much that in comparison to that love, your love for your family and friends and yourself is essentially non-existent. If they in any way would lead you away from God, you need to reject that inclination completely.

goto11 4y ago
> The way I understand it is that "hate" in this context means "love less" It means "treat like shit and abandon". You can see this from other examples: > He said to another man, “Follow me.” But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.” Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” > Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.” Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”
- Thorrez 4y ago
  > He said to another man, “Follow me.” But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.” Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” That man's father is still alive. When he says "bury my father" he means continue living with his father until his father dies and he then becomes fully independent and can have time to follow Jesus. Jesus says don't wait for some long future day, follow me right now. The guy isn't literally walking to the cemetery at that moment to bury his father. > Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.” Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.” Jesus isn't saying we shouldn't have ties to our family. Jesus goes with Peter to visit Peter's mother in law for example, and Jesus keeps in touch with his own mother. In this instance, Jesus sees this guy is making excuses and says we need to stop making excuses. Following God is more important than anything else and if we put off God in favor of family, that's wrong. We should still love our family and treat them with respect, but don't use them as an excuse to avoid following God.
  - goto11 4y ago
    > That man's father is still alive At this point you are just writing fan-fiction. > We should still love our family and treat them with respect, That may be what you believe, which is great, but that is just not what Jesus is saying. Leaving your family without saying goodbye is just a really horrible thing to do.
    - Thorrez 4y ago
      >At this point you are just writing fan-fiction. Ok, looking into it more, it looks like it's not a completely agreed upon point on whether the father is alive or dead[1]. The thing is, you and I, being so far removed and thus unfamiliar with the culture and idioms of the time, don't have a real basis to claim one way or the other whether the father is alive. >Leaving your family without saying goodbye is just a really horrible thing to do. Jesus can see into the man's heart and knows he's making excuses. We don't really know anything about this man, but Jesus was with him frequently, and knows him well. Maybe he doesn't have any close family and is referring to distant cousins. Jesus knows that and we don't. Jesus' disciples don't abandon their family, because we're told of Jesus visiting their families with them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_8:21 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_8:21
      - goto11 4y ago
        > Maybe he doesn't have any close family and is referring to distant cousins. You are just making up stories. Of course you are free to make up any story you want if this helps with the cognitive dissonance arising the text.
WHATDOESIT 4y ago
The translations include changes to modern words, don't they? Don't tell me you can't see the craziness you're leading yourself into here. And don't tell me you don't see any room for misinterpretation if you are even correct - which you aren't as the other commenter has shown. From another commenter: > A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man And also: > A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. Tell us please how we just misunderstood the context of these two. Or were we supposed to begin reading between the lines now that it doesn't sound so positive?
- Thorrez 4y ago
  The translations change the individual words, and move words around to fit grammatically, but they tend to be fairly literal. See this literal word by word translation from the original Greek, and see how it's basically the same as the translation previously quoted: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/14-26.htm https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/14-26.htm Neither of those other quotes were from Jesus, they were from Paul. Neither of them say abusing women is ok. I agree that parts of the new testament sound off to modern ears. If you're interested in how those quotes can be interpreted, one example is https://www.thegoodbook.com/blog/interestingthoughts/2019/04/02/unpacking-a-controversial-passage-1-timothy-2/ https://www.thegoodbook.com/blog/interestingthoughts/2019/04...
  - goto11 4y ago
    > Neither of them say abusing women is ok I guess this depends on if you think it is abuse to treat women as subservient beings and deny them their voice. But you must really fear smart women to think this is good thing.
    - Thorrez 4y ago
      That second quote is about church services. It doesn't apply to the workplace, schools, or any place except church services. https://www.crossway.org/articles/what-does-it-mean-that-women-should-remain-quiet-in-church-1-timothy-2/ https://www.crossway.org/articles/what-does-it-mean-that-wom...