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There are two companies that have been huge disappointments in the EV space: Nissan and BMW. Nissan (from which we purchased the OG Leaf we still have), because

There are two companies that have been huge disappointments in the EV space: Nissan and BMW. Nissan (from which we purchased the OG Leaf we still have), because they just sat on their laurels with a car that quickly got overtaken by other brands. BMW, because like Nissan they squandered their lead. And because squandering their lead wasn't enough, the CEO from a while back basically came out and said they didn't think EVs were the future (or something like that). And so now I'm supposed to believe BMW is all-in on EVs? Meh, as much as we like our BMW motorcycles, I think we're just going to pass on BMW for now, as much as we might lust after the EV M version. Convince us you're committed, BMW, and we can talk again in a few years.

potatochup 4y ago
What lead did BMW ever have? The i3 was always way overpriced for the range and size. Agree on Nissan though. The leaf used to be the only cheapish EV available in the USA but Chevys newer products and prices look far more competitive
- mikestew 4y ago
  Over-priced? For what it was, yes, but some of that was the BMW badge. And the interior was nicer than the competition, too. But the lead I'm referring to is being one of the first three to mass-produce EVs, and one of those three was an unknown (Tesla). BMW already knew how to build cars, they just needed to learn how to electrify them. Tesla had to go learn how to build cars, which I'll assume was harder than electrifying something you already know how to build. So while Tesla was jamming pieces of 2x4 wood into fender panels, and zip-tying pieces together, Tesla was still becoming BMW faster than BMW was becoming Tesla (to horribly butcher a Netflix CEO's words). Only the last couple of years have seen BMW trickle out something that isn't an i3. As for Nissan, I'm with you on Chevy's competition. But I was on about how they were the first modern manufacturer of mass-produced BEVs and eleven years later...they still have just the one model that sits on the low-end. And as you point out, that singular model's lunch is probably getting eaten by Chevy Bolts.
  - colinjoy 4y ago
    The challenge for legacy car makers seems to be less about electrifying the drive train and more about moving to a capable software architecture and UX.
    - heisenzombie 4y ago
      I agree you’re probably right, but it frustrates me because I don’t understand why changing the drivetrain has become linked in peoples heads with lots of software and UI changes in the cabin. They should be totally orthogonal! That said if BMW had bought out a 5 series that was absolutely identical in the cabin apart from the fuel gauge showing battery and the tachometer showing energy out/regen — would that not have been a super popular product?
      - potatochup 4y ago
        Agreed. Tesla needed flashy new tech to attract early adopter buyers, and also to attract talented engineers. Now that EVs are somewhat accepted by mainstream, only now we see the likes of Ford coming out with the comparatively normal EV F150.
    - hedora 4y ago
      The i3 has the best UX I've seen in a car. It has a jog wheel (no touch screen), and lots of useful battery optimization features in the navigation system. I can navigate to addresses in my phone book (and change route efficiency vs time settings), play podcasts, internet radio and tidal albums using the jog wheel (while the car is moving), and make phone calls without taking my hands off the wheel.
    - nickfromseattle 4y ago
      One of the other big challenges in the dealership model. Dealerships make most of their profit on services [0], not car sales, and electric cars need significantly less services than ICE [1][2]. [0] https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/where-does-the-car-dealer-make-money.html#:~:text=The%20new%20vehicle%20department%20of,on%20new%20and%20used%20cars https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/where-does-the-car-dealer.... [1] https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_maintenance.html#:~:text=All%2Delectric%20vehicles%20typically%20require,oil%2C%20that%20require%20regular%20maintenance https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_maintenance.html#:... [2] https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-02-10/people-want-electric-cars-dealers-dont-want-to-sell https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-02-10/people-want...
- panick21_ 4y ago
  The i3 was an interesting engineering prototype and it was overpriced. But had they developed a better more mainstream package around the car it could have still been a pretty decent seller. And the follow up versions could have improved, that is what many internally at BMW expected. They wanted the next evolution of all their major cars to go EV. However management pulled the rug from that and basically said the next full product cycle is gone be mostly ICE with some PHEV and very little pure electric. So they went from a company who was transitioning to EV rapitly, to a company that focused on a strategy of 'everything' meaning architectures that are ICE, PHEV, HEV, even hydrogen and electric.
- cnasc 4y ago
  BMW was very early in on R&D for practical electric cars compared to most legacy automakers. Maybe the first large-ish scale thing was the 1 Series ActiveE (some family friends were in the Electronaut program), but they’ve been exploring it for decades. The i3’s price (and especially looks) we’re problems, but they absolutely could have had a strong contender years ahead of other legacy auto makers.
credit_guy 4y ago
Two weeks ago I rented a BMW X5 that was a plug-in hybrid. I was blown away by the driving feel. But maybe that's to be expected for a BMW vehicle. But I also think it's a really good vehicle from the environmental point of view. It has a battery-only range of 31 miles. The typical daily commute in the US is about 40 miles, if you do that, you'd burn gas for less than 10 miles per day. If you are lucky and can charge at work, then if you commute less than 60 miles per day on electricity only. In other words, you could drive in electric mode 90% of your miles, if not more, and never have any range anxiety.
thisarticle 4y ago
If Nissan and BMW are disappointments I have to wonder how badly you think of Toyota.
- darkteflon 4y ago
  Came here to say this. Not only are Toyota dragging their heels on EV development, but they also - famously - spend huge sums of money to thwart stricter emissions legislation in California (which has historically had an outsize influence on Federal standards), Japan and elsewhere.[1] This shameful conduct gets a big fat zero, nada, zilch coverage in Toyota’s home country. I wish more people would call them out on their hypocritical bullshit but they continue to successfully coast on their friendly “cool Japan” _kaizen_ reputation while quietly dragging us out the back to slit our throats. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27961606 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27961606
- mikestew 4y ago
  Late reply to say that when it comes to Toyota and EVs, it goes beyond disappointment: I don’t think about Toyota at all. Until you invoked their name, I had forgotten that they’re even working on an EV.

potatochup 4y ago

What lead did BMW ever have? The i3 was always way overpriced for the range and size. Agree on Nissan though. The leaf used to be the only cheapish EV available in the USA but Chevys newer products and prices look far more competitive

mikestew 4y ago
Over-priced? For what it was, yes, but some of that was the BMW badge. And the interior was nicer than the competition, too. But the lead I'm referring to is being one of the first three to mass-produce EVs, and one of those three was an unknown (Tesla). BMW already knew how to build cars, they just needed to learn how to electrify them. Tesla had to go learn how to build cars, which I'll assume was harder than electrifying something you already know how to build. So while Tesla was jamming pieces of 2x4 wood into fender panels, and zip-tying pieces together, Tesla was still becoming BMW faster than BMW was becoming Tesla (to horribly butcher a Netflix CEO's words). Only the last couple of years have seen BMW trickle out something that isn't an i3. As for Nissan, I'm with you on Chevy's competition. But I was on about how they were the first modern manufacturer of mass-produced BEVs and eleven years later...they still have just the one model that sits on the low-end. And as you point out, that singular model's lunch is probably getting eaten by Chevy Bolts.
- colinjoy 4y ago
  The challenge for legacy car makers seems to be less about electrifying the drive train and more about moving to a capable software architecture and UX.
  - heisenzombie 4y ago
    I agree you’re probably right, but it frustrates me because I don’t understand why changing the drivetrain has become linked in peoples heads with lots of software and UI changes in the cabin. They should be totally orthogonal! That said if BMW had bought out a 5 series that was absolutely identical in the cabin apart from the fuel gauge showing battery and the tachometer showing energy out/regen — would that not have been a super popular product?
    - potatochup 4y ago
      Agreed. Tesla needed flashy new tech to attract early adopter buyers, and also to attract talented engineers. Now that EVs are somewhat accepted by mainstream, only now we see the likes of Ford coming out with the comparatively normal EV F150.
  - hedora 4y ago
    The i3 has the best UX I've seen in a car. It has a jog wheel (no touch screen), and lots of useful battery optimization features in the navigation system. I can navigate to addresses in my phone book (and change route efficiency vs time settings), play podcasts, internet radio and tidal albums using the jog wheel (while the car is moving), and make phone calls without taking my hands off the wheel.
  - nickfromseattle 4y ago
    One of the other big challenges in the dealership model. Dealerships make most of their profit on services [0], not car sales, and electric cars need significantly less services than ICE [1][2]. [0] https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/where-does-the-car-dealer-make-money.html#:~:text=The%20new%20vehicle%20department%20of,on%20new%20and%20used%20cars https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/where-does-the-car-dealer.... [1] https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_maintenance.html#:~:text=All%2Delectric%20vehicles%20typically%20require,oil%2C%20that%20require%20regular%20maintenance https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_maintenance.html#:... [2] https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-02-10/people-want-electric-cars-dealers-dont-want-to-sell https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-02-10/people-want...
panick21_ 4y ago
The i3 was an interesting engineering prototype and it was overpriced. But had they developed a better more mainstream package around the car it could have still been a pretty decent seller. And the follow up versions could have improved, that is what many internally at BMW expected. They wanted the next evolution of all their major cars to go EV. However management pulled the rug from that and basically said the next full product cycle is gone be mostly ICE with some PHEV and very little pure electric. So they went from a company who was transitioning to EV rapitly, to a company that focused on a strategy of 'everything' meaning architectures that are ICE, PHEV, HEV, even hydrogen and electric.
cnasc 4y ago
BMW was very early in on R&D for practical electric cars compared to most legacy automakers. Maybe the first large-ish scale thing was the 1 Series ActiveE (some family friends were in the Electronaut program), but they’ve been exploring it for decades. The i3’s price (and especially looks) we’re problems, but they absolutely could have had a strong contender years ahead of other legacy auto makers.

credit_guy 4y ago

Two weeks ago I rented a BMW X5 that was a plug-in hybrid. I was blown away by the driving feel. But maybe that's to be expected for a BMW vehicle. But I also think it's a really good vehicle from the environmental point of view. It has a battery-only range of 31 miles. The typical daily commute in the US is about 40 miles, if you do that, you'd burn gas for less than 10 miles per day. If you are lucky and can charge at work, then if you commute less than 60 miles per day on electricity only. In other words, you could drive in electric mode 90% of your miles, if not more, and never have any range anxiety.

thisarticle 4y ago

If Nissan and BMW are disappointments I have to wonder how badly you think of Toyota.

darkteflon 4y ago
Came here to say this. Not only are Toyota dragging their heels on EV development, but they also - famously - spend huge sums of money to thwart stricter emissions legislation in California (which has historically had an outsize influence on Federal standards), Japan and elsewhere.[1] This shameful conduct gets a big fat zero, nada, zilch coverage in Toyota’s home country. I wish more people would call them out on their hypocritical bullshit but they continue to successfully coast on their friendly “cool Japan” _kaizen_ reputation while quietly dragging us out the back to slit our throats. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27961606 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27961606
mikestew 4y ago
Late reply to say that when it comes to Toyota and EVs, it goes beyond disappointment: I don’t think about Toyota at all. Until you invoked their name, I had forgotten that they’re even working on an EV.