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>Right, same as a police officer who asks if they can "look around" or "ask a few questions". ...But in general you'd be a fool to do so, and you also may say "
by xnyan 4y ago
>Right, same as a police officer who asks if they can "look around" or "ask a few questions". ...But in general you'd be a fool to do so, and you also may say "no"
This is not only a very naive take, its a dangerous one - people have been killed by law enforcement for doing what you are suggesting. Law Enforcement Officers in the US has what is known as qualified immunity. In practice qualified immunity means as long as the LEO says they believed they were following rules (even if they were not), then they can do anything they want to you (including kill you) with little to no personal consequences.
In other words, you can say "No officer, you can't look around without a warrant", to which they can say "I see an object that may be a gun, and you're moving your hand in the direction of your pocket. Stop. I'm afraid for my life, I need to break your car windows and throw you on the street"
It's common enough that a LEO can publicly and slowly strangle George Floyd on the street, recorded and in front of others, and the only notable/unusual aspect is that the police officer was convicted of a crime.
Your rights don't mean shit to cops.
- ch4s3 4y ago> people have been killed by law enforcement for doing what you are suggesting. Can you cite any examples of this happening? I’m a pretty big policing reform person and follow this stuff closely and can’t think of a single case like this.
- lisper 4y agoHe did cite an example: George Floyd. You really ought to read the comment you are replying to more carefully. (And you have to be pretty profoundly ignorant of current events not to already be aware of this.)
- ch4s3 4y agoI did read it. Floyd wasn’t killed while refusing an unlawful search, which is specifically what I’m asking about.
- lisper 4y agoDo you really think the details of the pretext matter?
- andrewprock 4y agoYes, the pretext matters. Border searches is the topic of the article.
- ch4s3 4y agoWe’ll I was specifically asking if there are examples of people being killed by police for refusing a search without a warrant, so it matters insofar as it’s the question I asked. I’m not here to defend policing as it stands in the US or dismiss any wrongful killing. I just disagree with a particular narrow assertion.
- lisper 4y ago> I was specifically asking if there are examples of people being killed by police for refusing a search without a warrant No, you weren't. You asked: "Can you cite any examples of *this* happening? I’m a pretty big policing reform person and follow this stuff closely and can’t think of a single case *like this*." [Emphasis added] The semantics of that question turn entirely on the antecedent of "this", which is pretty ambiguous in this (!) context. So I'll revise my criticism of your original remark: you need to be clearer about the scope of what you are asking about. Personally, I don't think it is at all unreasonable to extrapolate the circumstances of the GF case to the potential for the same thing to happen during a border search, but I suppose reasonable people could disagree.
- MockObject 4y agoNo, it was clear that he was asking about >>> you also may say "no" >> people have been killed by law enforcement for doing what you are suggesting. > Can you cite any examples of this happening? and not George Floyd.
- xtracto 4y ago> I’m a pretty big policing reform person and follow this stuff closely and can’t think of a single case like this. I live in Mexico and even I know about the Floyd case ... it seems you don't really follow that kind of thing at all.
- ch4s3 4y agoThat incident doesn’t really relate to refusing a search without a warrant. While a horrible injustice, the particulars are quite different.
- nemothekid 4y agoWasn't this essentially what happened to Philando Castile? In his case he was even complying before he was shot, and the officer who shot him was acquitted.
- ch4s3 4y agoI believe that was a traffic stop and the officer freaked out after Castile mentioned that he had a CC handgun. Clearly the officer fucked up and murdered an innocent man. However, I think that’s different in kind and circumstances from what I was asking about.
- nemothekid 4y ago1. A police offer stopped a citizen. 2. The citizen asserted his rights. 3. The citizen was shot and killed. I imagine you are splitting hairs on 2, (mentioning you have a CC handgun, vs telling an officer they can't have your phone), but both are Rights and one person died trying to exercise them (i.e., Your rights don't mean shit to cops).
- ch4s3 4y agoI see your point, but I was specifically asking about searches like the border searches mentioned in the article, that's the context here. I also agree that Castile was murdered by a cop, I just don't think it's splitting hairs to distinguish between a warrantless search and seizure vs a traffic stop where a handgun is in play. Both involve violations of rights, but different rights and in circumstances which are operationally different if that makes sense.