4 ms·

That sounds great when typing it up on the internet in a comfortable chair, but when a few power hungry workers with guns are breathing down your neck in a smal

That sounds great when typing it up on the internet in a comfortable chair, but when a few power hungry workers with guns are breathing down your neck in a small room you can't get out of, the rules aren't going to make you feel 'safe'.

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
Eh, right are only rights if they are enforced and/or asserted. If neither is done, at best, they are forgotten and wither and at worst become a quaint memory of things that were. The rules exist for a reason. They also exist for people with guns; especially for people that do it on behalf of government. If you are afraid of guns from people in uniform, you are already doing it wrong. I will tell you this as an interesting little factoid. In Israel guns are everywhere, but you are responsible for every single bullet.
- galangalalgol 4y ago
  I have often wondered why gun control advocates in the US haven't taken the ammunition approach. Is there some precedent in the courts that limitations on ammunition are equivalent to those on the firearms themselves? I.E. ammunition commonly used for legal purposes cannot be banned?
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    In a sense, steps have been taken to do just that, but not in courts. I am not a proponent of those efforts, but it is important to understand what is going on. Various payment systems are currently trying coordinate in a way to track those purchases. Naturally, once they are tracked, they eventually will be marked as risky and, in banks anyway, derisked in a typical bank fashion. The same approach is taken for porn. And to all that cheer this one, because you happen to align with those values, remember that a tool is just a tool and can be used by anyone for anything.
    - galangalalgol 4y ago
      So that means ammunition must be purchased by bank wire or something? Or of course cash if in person. They already do this for pornography? Yeah, that sounds super scary. Maybe cryptocurrencies are a good thing... I don't want to have to buy a ladder with BTC because I might fall off of it and sue visa.
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    They have. New York doesn't allow free purchase of pistol ammunition. That also includes small caliber rifle ammunition that has been used in handgun applications.
    - galangalalgol 4y ago
      What restrictions are placed? Quantity or do you just sign for it, or show a carry permit?
- oneplane 4y ago
  It's not the guns that are the problem in this scenario, it's the person holding it. If they feel like they can get away with anything, no rule will help you. And even if down the line you get your day in court, you'll still be the one shot.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    You might be onto something. Being able to gauge the person behind gun is probably helpful. Long time ago in country far away, we was traveling through a soon to be former Soviet satellite country. My brother got really sick. We were worried he would die. GPS does not exist yet. Foreign country. We miraculously stumbled upon a hospital. It happened to have armed guards. They blocked the entrance. My mom got pissed and started walking towards them with my brother in her arms. Rifle was raised, but guard ended flat on the floor as my mom pushed him out of the way. My dad followed with an embarrassed hand gestures that he hoped meant 'sorry, she is a little preoccupied now'. Nothing happened. Brother didn't die either. We drove forth. How you handle yourself matters; doubly so in a time of actual crisis. edit: Don't be an idiot rule applies. Sensible person will not storm armed guards just because you read a testimonial on the net. << no rule will help you. What do you propose then, because I assure you the world without rules will not be a world people will want to exist in for long?
- JohnFen 4y ago
  > If you are afraid of guns from people in uniform, you are already doing it wrong. There is ample evidence in the US that fear of people in uniform carrying guns is a very rational thing.
Test0129 4y ago
That's why in fields where this isn't uncommon you drill and drill and drill your response until it becomes second nature. If you don't comply you are still an American citizen. CBP cannot deny you entry for any reason (yet). However, they can make your life hell for as long as legally possible. If you are prepared for that then you absolute can and should tell them to pound sand. Just like you should to the police. But standing up for yourself has consequences you may not be prepared for. In both cases, CBP and police, you may be isolated from your loved ones, harassed, interrogated, etc in an attempt to make you crack. The difference, in a "border zone"[1] 100 miles from any border you effectively lose several important rights so the stakes are far, far higher. But, if you are truly innocent, it is worth the time to exercise your fourth and fifth amendment. As long as you present the correct paperwork the officer can't do much. However, they CAN lie. So it's imperative you know your rights to not talk yourself into probable cause. [1] https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone
- notch656a 4y ago
  >If you are prepared for that then you absolute can and should tell them to pound sand. Just like you should to the police. But standing up for yourself has consequences you may not be prepared for. In both cases, CBP and police, you may be isolated from your loved ones, harassed, interrogated, etc in an attempt to make you crack. I went through the border without a phone or anything of interest for them to search. They cuffed and shackled me, finger printed me, booked me, tossed me in a cell. Then held me for 16 hours while driving me to hospitals and told doctors there was drugs up my ass. Towards the end they got a warrant to cover their ass, where they woke a federal judge and and the US assistant attorney in the middle of the night and told them vicious lies that a dog had 'alerted' on my asshole and that during a (real) invasive strip search they found (fake) evidence of smuggling. [note: am US citizen]
xoa 4y ago
As sibling comments have said already, rights must be defended, and clear eyed prep is a big part of the answer for individuals. Even just thinking it through a bit, while you have time. >That sounds great How does having your property confiscated for days/weeks and being arrested sound "great" to you? It's not great, it stinks. For some people it could even be ruinous. But it's also legal reality. Every single "right" your or I or anyone has came out of blood. Lots of blood. Blood, sweat, tears, money, activism, power both soft and hard. The entire reason the ACLU exists at all is precisely that rights don't auto-enforce and must be defended, that's literally their raison d'etre. When they say US Citizens have an absolute legal right of entry but that exercising it may result in significant inconvenience or cost they aren't wrong. All of society as well as individuals need to work with that tailored to their own situations. >but when a few power hungry workers with guns are breathing down your neck in a small room you can't get out of, the rules aren't going to make you feel 'safe'. And? What does "feeling safe" have to do with this? And it's precisely because we're "in comfortable chairs" that it's the best time to go over our rights and consider ways to protect them both at the overall political level and individual level, rather then once we're in the hot seat. Preparation is worth a huge amount. If you know both your rights and the practical risks, you can do things like simply carry a minimal phone/computer, load and reload with a VPN at your destination. Make sure trusted contacts know all your travel plans and status. If you're carrying sensitive data for a corporation or government, check in with your legal department, HR etc. That's literally a core strength of a big organization, that they can have powerful specialists of their own vs leaving it all on their employees. At the political level, when was the last time you actually wrote your Senators and House Rep? If you're outraged and feel at risk, the bare minimum is telling them that. It adds up. Even if one gets a canned reply they absolutely pay attention to volume on an issue, and on a sliding scale. People who are angry enough to actually go to the trouble of writing or even calling are presumed to represent some number of people angry enough to maybe vote in opposition or stay home on election day but can't be bothered to write or don't know to.
- oneplane 4y ago
  Not everyone wants to spend their time on any of this. Some people want to go about their day as they please without having to deal with any of this. That's the entire goal of having a society.

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago

Eh, right are only rights if they are enforced and/or asserted. If neither is done, at best, they are forgotten and wither and at worst become a quaint memory of things that were. The rules exist for a reason. They also exist for people with guns; especially for people that do it on behalf of government. If you are afraid of guns from people in uniform, you are already doing it wrong. I will tell you this as an interesting little factoid. In Israel guns are everywhere, but you are responsible for every single bullet.

galangalalgol 4y ago
I have often wondered why gun control advocates in the US haven't taken the ammunition approach. Is there some precedent in the courts that limitations on ammunition are equivalent to those on the firearms themselves? I.E. ammunition commonly used for legal purposes cannot be banned?
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  In a sense, steps have been taken to do just that, but not in courts. I am not a proponent of those efforts, but it is important to understand what is going on. Various payment systems are currently trying coordinate in a way to track those purchases. Naturally, once they are tracked, they eventually will be marked as risky and, in banks anyway, derisked in a typical bank fashion. The same approach is taken for porn. And to all that cheer this one, because you happen to align with those values, remember that a tool is just a tool and can be used by anyone for anything.
  - galangalalgol 4y ago
    So that means ammunition must be purchased by bank wire or something? Or of course cash if in person. They already do this for pornography? Yeah, that sounds super scary. Maybe cryptocurrencies are a good thing... I don't want to have to buy a ladder with BTC because I might fall off of it and sue visa.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  They have. New York doesn't allow free purchase of pistol ammunition. That also includes small caliber rifle ammunition that has been used in handgun applications.
  - galangalalgol 4y ago
    What restrictions are placed? Quantity or do you just sign for it, or show a carry permit?
oneplane 4y ago
It's not the guns that are the problem in this scenario, it's the person holding it. If they feel like they can get away with anything, no rule will help you. And even if down the line you get your day in court, you'll still be the one shot.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  You might be onto something. Being able to gauge the person behind gun is probably helpful. Long time ago in country far away, we was traveling through a soon to be former Soviet satellite country. My brother got really sick. We were worried he would die. GPS does not exist yet. Foreign country. We miraculously stumbled upon a hospital. It happened to have armed guards. They blocked the entrance. My mom got pissed and started walking towards them with my brother in her arms. Rifle was raised, but guard ended flat on the floor as my mom pushed him out of the way. My dad followed with an embarrassed hand gestures that he hoped meant 'sorry, she is a little preoccupied now'. Nothing happened. Brother didn't die either. We drove forth. How you handle yourself matters; doubly so in a time of actual crisis. edit: Don't be an idiot rule applies. Sensible person will not storm armed guards just because you read a testimonial on the net. << no rule will help you. What do you propose then, because I assure you the world without rules will not be a world people will want to exist in for long?
JohnFen 4y ago
> If you are afraid of guns from people in uniform, you are already doing it wrong. There is ample evidence in the US that fear of people in uniform carrying guns is a very rational thing.

Test0129 4y ago

That's why in fields where this isn't uncommon you drill and drill and drill your response until it becomes second nature. If you don't comply you are still an American citizen. CBP cannot deny you entry for any reason (yet). However, they can make your life hell for as long as legally possible. If you are prepared for that then you absolute can and should tell them to pound sand. Just like you should to the police. But standing up for yourself has consequences you may not be prepared for. In both cases, CBP and police, you may be isolated from your loved ones, harassed, interrogated, etc in an attempt to make you crack. The difference, in a "border zone"[1] 100 miles from any border you effectively lose several important rights so the stakes are far, far higher. But, if you are truly innocent, it is worth the time to exercise your fourth and fifth amendment. As long as you present the correct paperwork the officer can't do much. However, they CAN lie. So it's imperative you know your rights to not talk yourself into probable cause. [1] https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone

notch656a 4y ago
>If you are prepared for that then you absolute can and should tell them to pound sand. Just like you should to the police. But standing up for yourself has consequences you may not be prepared for. In both cases, CBP and police, you may be isolated from your loved ones, harassed, interrogated, etc in an attempt to make you crack. I went through the border without a phone or anything of interest for them to search. They cuffed and shackled me, finger printed me, booked me, tossed me in a cell. Then held me for 16 hours while driving me to hospitals and told doctors there was drugs up my ass. Towards the end they got a warrant to cover their ass, where they woke a federal judge and and the US assistant attorney in the middle of the night and told them vicious lies that a dog had 'alerted' on my asshole and that during a (real) invasive strip search they found (fake) evidence of smuggling. [note: am US citizen]

xoa 4y ago

As sibling comments have said already, rights must be defended, and clear eyed prep is a big part of the answer for individuals. Even just thinking it through a bit, while you have time. >That sounds great How does having your property confiscated for days/weeks and being arrested sound "great" to you? It's not great, it stinks. For some people it could even be ruinous. But it's also legal reality. Every single "right" your or I or anyone has came out of blood. Lots of blood. Blood, sweat, tears, money, activism, power both soft and hard. The entire reason the ACLU exists at all is precisely that rights don't auto-enforce and must be defended, that's literally their raison d'etre. When they say US Citizens have an absolute legal right of entry but that exercising it may result in significant inconvenience or cost they aren't wrong. All of society as well as individuals need to work with that tailored to their own situations. >but when a few power hungry workers with guns are breathing down your neck in a small room you can't get out of, the rules aren't going to make you feel 'safe'. And? What does "feeling safe" have to do with this? And it's precisely because we're "in comfortable chairs" that it's the best time to go over our rights and consider ways to protect them both at the overall political level and individual level, rather then once we're in the hot seat. Preparation is worth a huge amount. If you know both your rights and the practical risks, you can do things like simply carry a minimal phone/computer, load and reload with a VPN at your destination. Make sure trusted contacts know all your travel plans and status. If you're carrying sensitive data for a corporation or government, check in with your legal department, HR etc. That's literally a core strength of a big organization, that they can have powerful specialists of their own vs leaving it all on their employees. At the political level, when was the last time you actually wrote your Senators and House Rep? If you're outraged and feel at risk, the bare minimum is telling them that. It adds up. Even if one gets a canned reply they absolutely pay attention to volume on an issue, and on a sliding scale. People who are angry enough to actually go to the trouble of writing or even calling are presumed to represent some number of people angry enough to maybe vote in opposition or stay home on election day but can't be bothered to write or don't know to.

oneplane 4y ago
Not everyone wants to spend their time on any of this. Some people want to go about their day as they please without having to deal with any of this. That's the entire goal of having a society.