5 ms·

Seems like real solution are phones that by default provided end-to-end-encryption for cloud backups, no local data “travel modes”, secure wipes, multiple login

Seems like real solution are phones that by default provided end-to-end-encryption for cloud backups, no local data “travel modes”, secure wipes, multiple logins, etc. — since trying to get countries to uniformly play by same rules seem highly unlikely.

Bakary 4y ago
Or just a burner with plausible activity stored on it to give the impression that it's your main phone.
- excalibur 4y ago
  +1 for burner, but why bother loading it with data? Just throw on a few texts that say "Stop spying on me you useless cunts."
- joelhaasnoot 4y ago
  I believe for many companies that do business in China this is already standard procedure, also for laptops
- O__________O 4y ago
  If by plausible, you mean intentionally false — then in many countries, if caught, that might result in being: blacklisted, deported, imprisoned, detained, lose of citizenship, etc.
- dylan604 4y ago
  I don't get the plausible activity bit. Just tell them it is your travel phone and be done.
  - Bakary 4y ago
    That's not an acceptable answer in a number of countries.
    - dylan604 4y ago
      It's not like you have another phone you're trying to hide and pass this one off, right? So at that point, it is the only answer. They can not like it all they want, and they can spend as much time trying to find how you're gaming them, but if you're not actually gaming them, then that's their problem.
      - gambiting 4y ago
        >>but if you're not actually gaming them, then that's their problem. Is it? They have almost infinite time and money, they can follow false leads and accusations almost indefinitely, and whoever makes that decision will never be met with any kind of consequence for making the wrong call. However sitting in a cell somewhere while they wait for you to give them information that doesn't exist definitely sounds like your problem not theirs.
    - unethical_ban 4y ago
      What the fuck? Are you saying I would get denied entry to a country if I brought no phone or a new phone?
      - Bakary 4y ago
        In some countries and contexts this is a possibility. It's not uncommon for countries to have a system where you essentially have to convince a human border guard that you are no threat with no clear guidelines. Having no phone or a phone with not enough data can be a problem in such a context. The vast majority of border crossings across the world don't involve any questions about phones anyway, but if you are at the stage where they do the characteristics of your phone or lack thereof can piss off the person who determines whether you are allowed to enter. And if you are at that stage entry denial will probably not be solely based on your phone or lack thereof because there was probably a reason they starting asking about it in the first place. These aren't purely hypothetical scenarios but real life examples of things that happened to people I know.
        4y ago
  - nicolaslem 4y ago
    "Trying to be smart? Sorry mate, no entry for you, enjoy your flight back home."
- JohnFen 4y ago
  Why even bother with plausible activity? Just don't have your real phone with you at all. You can't produce what's not in your possession.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    "Oh you have no phone and nothing to search? There must be drugs up your asshole" <detained and search, strip-search invasively, cuffed, shackled, tossed in cell, taken to hospitals against my will (for 16 hours) where they lied to doctors. Warrant obtained (for external and 'internal' search). Taken (via prisoner van) to another hospital 60 miles away with more crooked doctor after first doctor refuses to go with the shenanigans. Finger printed, booked. Denied sleep and harassed every time you try to fall asleep. Forced to perform bodily functions in front of agents, who search what comes out. Eventually dumped at the border without apology -- hopefully if you have pets or children someone will take care of them because you're not entitled to a phone call or use of a phone in most circumstances.> My true story as a US citizen re-entering America. Enjoy!
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      There are (still) lots of US citizens who don't own a cellphone and so couldn't produce one. Are all of those subject to a cavity search? If that were common, I'd think I'd heard of it by now. In any case, if the choice is between having a copy of the contents of my phone made, or being detained and cavity-searched, I'll take the detention and cavity search.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        >In any case, if the choice is between having a copy of the contents of my phone made, or being detained and cavity-searched, I'll take the detention and cavity search. Obviously I would too, but if you haven't experienced this kind of detention I think you'll find people such as ourselves who would rather this than that are rare. And don't forget, once you're on the shit-list they will mark you on their computer and make you experience hell _for life_ everytime you enter the US. Ask me how I know. Ready to exercise some privacy today? Great, hope 30 years down the road when you want to take the grandkids to Cabo you're ready for the whole party to get the Pablo Escabar lock-up experience. Want to get quick lunch across the border? Hope you informed your boss you may not be back to work tomorrow. I've effectively lost for life the ability most Americans have to have any expectation whatsoever they may be able to clear customs in a matter of hours. I have to plan to be in complete incommunicado from my family for 24 hours from the time I hit the border. I have to plan that most likely I'll be tossed in a cold cell, and perhaps get more Emergency Room bills after agents take me to doctors against my will. I have to prepare for the lawsuits that may come from any unpaid medical bills for medical service I never asked for and for which I was brought involuntarily (cuffed and shackled), which CBP officers have weaponized. I have to plan on never scheduling a flight back home the same day I enter the US, because most likely I'm going to miss it. >Are all of those subject to a cavity search? If that were common, I'd think I'd heard of it by now. Yes it's extremely common. Holy Cross Hospital in Nogalez, AZ has a steady stream of traffic bringing 'patients' in to be inspected in this manner and there are lawsuits for forceful penetration of women without a warrant as part of this practice as well. While the agents detained me they told me many many stories of others put through this treatment.
BiteCode_dev 4y ago
No because if it's standard, they will ask you to disable travel mode and download all the data. You can say no, but you can't refuse and cross the border. It's not a technical problem.
- gambiting 4y ago
  >>. You can say no, but you can't refuse and cross the border. It is my understanding that if you are American and are trying to enter, they can't stop you from coming in indefinitely, is that not true?
- O__________O 4y ago
  It for sure is a technical issue and by “travel mode” I mean you: 1. end-to-end encrypt a cloud backup 2. Securely wipe the phone. 3. Install OS in travel mode, which means no local data is forced and at best kept until restarting phone. Hardware enforcement of ban of updates including firmware and OS, unless system wiped. With a visual unique easily recognizable “code” to tell if the current “travel mode” was over rewritten; for example, unique consistent computer generated recognizable human face is shown on reboot until being reformatted and is different every time phone is reformatted. 4. On reaching known safe point, phone wiped, OS installed in non-travel mode, backup installed. If there’s no data or way to root the phone, it’s meaningless effort and would no longer even be done at the border; they might find another route to get data, but current issue would no longer be a viable route. — to be fair, I did mention multiple-logins, but to me that was intended to mean additional features/options, not a replacement for the core issue of forced access to devices/data at predictable chock points like border crossings.
  - BiteCode_dev 4y ago
    Nope, if an abusive administration is committed enough, it will mark as suspicious any cleaned phone, especially if they can access freely metadata about your life without a judge. No need for the content, they just need to make sure the activity score is higher than the one on your phone. It's not illegal not to have you real phone, but why haven't you? Do you have anything to hide? And they will make you life annoying enough, making you miss flights, waste your time, cost you money and opportunities, until most of the population comply. It's a cat and mouse game, where you are trying to oppose technical solutions to people being simply abusive, which doesn't work on the long run, because the problem is that you are being ruled by the mob. It's funny, because if were it be happening in China or in Russia, everybody would be loosing their mind, saying how those dictatorships are abusive. Then they would note how the Russian and Chinese don't seem to notice they are being abused and defend their country.

Bakary 4y ago

Or just a burner with plausible activity stored on it to give the impression that it's your main phone.

excalibur 4y ago
+1 for burner, but why bother loading it with data? Just throw on a few texts that say "Stop spying on me you useless cunts."
joelhaasnoot 4y ago
I believe for many companies that do business in China this is already standard procedure, also for laptops
O__________O 4y ago
If by plausible, you mean intentionally false — then in many countries, if caught, that might result in being: blacklisted, deported, imprisoned, detained, lose of citizenship, etc.
dylan604 4y ago
I don't get the plausible activity bit. Just tell them it is your travel phone and be done.
- Bakary 4y ago
  That's not an acceptable answer in a number of countries.
  - dylan604 4y ago
    It's not like you have another phone you're trying to hide and pass this one off, right? So at that point, it is the only answer. They can not like it all they want, and they can spend as much time trying to find how you're gaming them, but if you're not actually gaming them, then that's their problem.
    - gambiting 4y ago
      >>but if you're not actually gaming them, then that's their problem. Is it? They have almost infinite time and money, they can follow false leads and accusations almost indefinitely, and whoever makes that decision will never be met with any kind of consequence for making the wrong call. However sitting in a cell somewhere while they wait for you to give them information that doesn't exist definitely sounds like your problem not theirs.
  - unethical_ban 4y ago
    What the fuck? Are you saying I would get denied entry to a country if I brought no phone or a new phone?
    - Bakary 4y ago
      In some countries and contexts this is a possibility. It's not uncommon for countries to have a system where you essentially have to convince a human border guard that you are no threat with no clear guidelines. Having no phone or a phone with not enough data can be a problem in such a context. The vast majority of border crossings across the world don't involve any questions about phones anyway, but if you are at the stage where they do the characteristics of your phone or lack thereof can piss off the person who determines whether you are allowed to enter. And if you are at that stage entry denial will probably not be solely based on your phone or lack thereof because there was probably a reason they starting asking about it in the first place. These aren't purely hypothetical scenarios but real life examples of things that happened to people I know.
      - 4y ago
- nicolaslem 4y ago
  "Trying to be smart? Sorry mate, no entry for you, enjoy your flight back home."
JohnFen 4y ago
Why even bother with plausible activity? Just don't have your real phone with you at all. You can't produce what's not in your possession.
- notch656a 4y ago
  "Oh you have no phone and nothing to search? There must be drugs up your asshole" <detained and search, strip-search invasively, cuffed, shackled, tossed in cell, taken to hospitals against my will (for 16 hours) where they lied to doctors. Warrant obtained (for external and 'internal' search). Taken (via prisoner van) to another hospital 60 miles away with more crooked doctor after first doctor refuses to go with the shenanigans. Finger printed, booked. Denied sleep and harassed every time you try to fall asleep. Forced to perform bodily functions in front of agents, who search what comes out. Eventually dumped at the border without apology -- hopefully if you have pets or children someone will take care of them because you're not entitled to a phone call or use of a phone in most circumstances.> My true story as a US citizen re-entering America. Enjoy!
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    There are (still) lots of US citizens who don't own a cellphone and so couldn't produce one. Are all of those subject to a cavity search? If that were common, I'd think I'd heard of it by now. In any case, if the choice is between having a copy of the contents of my phone made, or being detained and cavity-searched, I'll take the detention and cavity search.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      >In any case, if the choice is between having a copy of the contents of my phone made, or being detained and cavity-searched, I'll take the detention and cavity search. Obviously I would too, but if you haven't experienced this kind of detention I think you'll find people such as ourselves who would rather this than that are rare. And don't forget, once you're on the shit-list they will mark you on their computer and make you experience hell _for life_ everytime you enter the US. Ask me how I know. Ready to exercise some privacy today? Great, hope 30 years down the road when you want to take the grandkids to Cabo you're ready for the whole party to get the Pablo Escabar lock-up experience. Want to get quick lunch across the border? Hope you informed your boss you may not be back to work tomorrow. I've effectively lost for life the ability most Americans have to have any expectation whatsoever they may be able to clear customs in a matter of hours. I have to plan to be in complete incommunicado from my family for 24 hours from the time I hit the border. I have to plan that most likely I'll be tossed in a cold cell, and perhaps get more Emergency Room bills after agents take me to doctors against my will. I have to prepare for the lawsuits that may come from any unpaid medical bills for medical service I never asked for and for which I was brought involuntarily (cuffed and shackled), which CBP officers have weaponized. I have to plan on never scheduling a flight back home the same day I enter the US, because most likely I'm going to miss it. >Are all of those subject to a cavity search? If that were common, I'd think I'd heard of it by now. Yes it's extremely common. Holy Cross Hospital in Nogalez, AZ has a steady stream of traffic bringing 'patients' in to be inspected in this manner and there are lawsuits for forceful penetration of women without a warrant as part of this practice as well. While the agents detained me they told me many many stories of others put through this treatment.

BiteCode_dev 4y ago

No because if it's standard, they will ask you to disable travel mode and download all the data. You can say no, but you can't refuse and cross the border. It's not a technical problem.

gambiting 4y ago
>>. You can say no, but you can't refuse and cross the border. It is my understanding that if you are American and are trying to enter, they can't stop you from coming in indefinitely, is that not true?
O__________O 4y ago
It for sure is a technical issue and by “travel mode” I mean you: 1. end-to-end encrypt a cloud backup 2. Securely wipe the phone. 3. Install OS in travel mode, which means no local data is forced and at best kept until restarting phone. Hardware enforcement of ban of updates including firmware and OS, unless system wiped. With a visual unique easily recognizable “code” to tell if the current “travel mode” was over rewritten; for example, unique consistent computer generated recognizable human face is shown on reboot until being reformatted and is different every time phone is reformatted. 4. On reaching known safe point, phone wiped, OS installed in non-travel mode, backup installed. If there’s no data or way to root the phone, it’s meaningless effort and would no longer even be done at the border; they might find another route to get data, but current issue would no longer be a viable route. — to be fair, I did mention multiple-logins, but to me that was intended to mean additional features/options, not a replacement for the core issue of forced access to devices/data at predictable chock points like border crossings.
- BiteCode_dev 4y ago
  Nope, if an abusive administration is committed enough, it will mark as suspicious any cleaned phone, especially if they can access freely metadata about your life without a judge. No need for the content, they just need to make sure the activity score is higher than the one on your phone. It's not illegal not to have you real phone, but why haven't you? Do you have anything to hide? And they will make you life annoying enough, making you miss flights, waste your time, cost you money and opportunities, until most of the population comply. It's a cat and mouse game, where you are trying to oppose technical solutions to people being simply abusive, which doesn't work on the long run, because the problem is that you are being ruled by the mob. It's funny, because if were it be happening in China or in Russia, everybody would be loosing their mind, saying how those dictatorships are abusive. Then they would note how the Russian and Chinese don't seem to notice they are being abused and defend their country.