12 ms·

Earth is now our only shareholder

126 points by aymericbeaumet 4y ago

michael1999 4y ago
Chouinard is one classy dude. It's a shame that the US legal system ruined his climbing company. I still have a sentimental old ice harness with the proper diamond logo. It inspires me to see him still doing things his way.
- 616c 4y ago
  Sounds like you have interesting background on the history with a specific perspective Can you share more?
  - acranox 4y ago
    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-05-11-we-3605-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-05-11-we-3605-s...
  - michael1999 4y ago
    Rock climbing has a history as a technical part of Alpinism. Over time, some people started to enjoy rock climbing more as a sport, and as an end unto itself, instead of just a sub-skill contributing to mountain ascents. Early 20c rock climbing started to break from the traditional siege mountaineering techniques: fixed ropes, jumars, hammered pins, hooks, etriers, nailed boots, etc. Post war, the availability of nylon, aluminium, chrome-steel, and synthetic rubber opened up the possibilities. Modern big-wall, ice, and clean rock styles developed. Chouinard was part of all these scenes, and big proponent of style. He made equipment, put up hard routes, and evangelized. He was one of many founders of modern "clean" style, using dynamic ropes and clean pro, leaving "nothing but footprints. Many early climbers made their own gear, or bought from a climber who did. But Chouinard (with Tom Frost) really got into it, and improved or invented a bunch of things (e.g. Hexcentrics, the modern ice axe, and then camalots!) that made clean climbing possible and safe(er). Chouinard equipment was from the future. But then the 80's happened, and the diy hippie scene gave way to the lawyers. Some people (novices, window washers, and other untrained people) died when they failed to secure their harness and fell, and the lawsuits looked likely to sink them. You'll notice the colour warnings and liability label around the double-back buckle these days -- that's from these suits. But, ever classy, he declared bankruptcy, sold the hard assets to the employees, and walked away. The logo and his name was consumed by the lawsuits, so the new Black Diamond logo was born. This image[0] shows two Chouinard logos, and then the BD logo. My old harness has the left logo, and I still have an old fimo earring I made to match. No offence meant to the BD people, but their logo will always be wrong to my eye. The wiki does an ok job with the basics[1], but it doesn't catch the mood of it. I started climbing in the 80s, coming up in the Yosemite school. We were absolutely scandalized that someone could try and sue when climbing went wrong -- especially for mis-use of the gear. Self-authority was central to the scene. Smarter people than me also knew there would be all sorts of secondary problems, and the battles over access in the next decades often had liability concerns at their core. It was the end of an era. [0] https://www.gearx.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/shirt2-300x195.jpg [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Diamond_Equipment#History
TimSchumann 4y ago
Discussion on the NY Times article posted yesterday about this announcement. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32842357 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32842357
beebmam 4y ago
It's a demonstrable fact that Carbon Dioxide as a % of the Earth's atmosphere is increasing, and virtually all serious models predict that it will have a significant impact on the planet's average temperature and other characteristics. But there's a big prisoner's dilemma emerging over it, especially as globalism appears to be breaking down between the West and Russia/China. When trade and diplomacy erode to the point of a cold war between the two factions, there's nothing that can be used as leverage to prevent the other parties from cheating on climate agreements. The West can try to tackle climate change in its own countries, but if the actions it takes puts them at a economic/military disadvantage to Russia/China, then it might do far more harm to the future of a free, non-totalitarian world than climate change could.
- immigrantheart 4y ago
  De-globalization will slow down economy, human activities, resulting in less pollution, less production. As long as there are no world wars, or any war for that matter, I'm all for de-globalization.
  - rospaya 4y ago
    You might not have a problem with your phone costing $2000 dollars in that case, but there's so much machinery, equipment, chips, materials and various other products that would massively increase in cost or simply couldn't be produced anywhere else. How would that affect healthcare, education, manufacturing, whatever? I'm guessing that the amount of avoidable deaths that would be caused just because you can't get a chip that you need for a medical diagnostic device would soon be rivaling potential climate change deaths. Climate change needs to be tackled and globalization isn't my favorite thing in the world, but I don't think this is the right way.
    - uoaei 4y ago
      "De-growth" should be understood to mean we will have to give up some things in the name of the greater good. Yours is quite a common argument, but ultimately it is justified by a sense of entitlement of having the technology that is now assumed to be necessary and inevitable. The reality is that we as a civilization have jumped too far, too fast, we don't actually need those things to survive, and we will need to be comfortable temporarily sacrificing certain luxuries to attain a long-lasting sustainable path forward.
immigrantheart 4y ago
Just in time that I would like to buy a winter jacket, seems Patagonia is the brand, if not at least a used one.
- uoaei 4y ago
  - mandmandam 4y ago
    Everything I've ever seen from Patagonia shows that they actually walk the walk. They source as ethically as possible. Their repair program is unmatched. They pay their workers well. In this story, they did their utmost to ensure their company remains well run, while constantly supporting their goal of protecting nature. So, what exactly is your point here? Of all the companies you could reasonably attack for propaganda - why this one?
    - uoaei 4y ago
      Not saying they are lying about what they are doing, only that they are conscious of what kind of message the PR sends, factored it into their sales forecasts, and are now profiting off of it. It's just business. In general brand loyalty is a consumerist mindset, period. To the extent that Patagonia's actions engender a "rethinking" of "capitalism" they are still inhabiting a space which benefits from encouraging a consumer mindset, which as we know is one of the main cultural forces that continues to push us toward more and more growth, at the behest of the (individualist) consumer, and at the expense of nature. Patagonia's ethics are complicated, as are those of any company who inhabits a system where profit is the dominant motive. Ultimately they are still producing articles primarily made of petrochemicals for one-time (and, occasionally, secondhand) consumption. They do good through advocacy and other initiatives, but one must consider the entire set of nth-order effects that participating in such a system entails, and if you do the accounting you would realize it is a net negative as far as climate impacts go.
- remify 4y ago
  I've got a Patagonia Parka, I get excited to wear it when it gets cold and rainy. They create amazing products that last long and you get fond of
komape 4y ago
This reminds me of Bosch. The majority of the company is owned by the Robert Bosch Stiftung [1] which gets the most of the profit (after reinvestments into the company) to fund educational projects in the sense of Robert Bosch. In my opinion it's a nice concept to use the profits for things that benefit us. There are still other people in charge of advisories but they don't profit from it. Let us hope that more companies follow the path of Bosch and Patagonia. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_Stiftung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_Stiftung
- mperham 4y ago
  If you want to learn about another fascinating company, research Rolex.
pphysch 4y ago
A massive PR move for a company in one of the most unnecessarily wasteful industries.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- voisin 4y ago
  Would you rather they not make this move? Comments like yours are unnecessarily exhausting. Are they perfect? No. If your standard is to criticize and tear down anyone doing anything less than perfect than you won’t ever be happy. Compared to almost everyone in this industry, this is a major move. How about we applaud it and hope others do the same rather than approach everything with a jaded eye because it doesn’t meet some impossible standard?
  - pphysch 4y ago
    I'm calling a spade a spade. It's a huge PR move that aligns with the brand identity. The (former) shareholders will continue to lead luxurious lives. Patagonia will continue to contribute to wasteful fashion and the global oversupply of clothing products. If any net-good is caused by this PR campaign, I will consider it a coincidence.
    - voisin 4y ago
      Patagonia’s pricing and quality can hardly be considered fast fashion! If you think it is contributing to the global oversupply of clothing the what do you propose instead? No clothing unless it is $1000/item and lasts forever? I think you need to reevaluate whether it is truly a spade you are calling a spade or whether your feelings about an entire industry lead you to denigrate every actor, including those imperfect actors who actually show leadership in the industry. Again, what standard do you need to see met in order to be satisfied?
      - pphysch 4y ago
        If Patagonia disappeared tomorrow, the world would not run out of quality clothing. That would be a bold sustainability move!
nostromo 4y ago
I wish they'd use less plastic. It's hard to find anything from Patagonia that uses environmentally-friendly materials. Perhaps they can research a way to make performance fabrics that are better for the earth. Allbirds has been a real pioneer in this space, and they've shown that you can use natural, sustainable materials and produce a product just as good as the others.
- dieselgate 4y ago
  I’m sure they do use plastic but don’t they also offer a recycled collection or something? Not familiar with it or the availability
- flockonus 4y ago
  *sustainable is highly disputed, it's unclear any use can be sustainable past a certain scale
Ironlikebike 4y ago
I'm curious what they're going to do, long term, about their use of PFAS (the alleged forever chemicals) in waterproofing. Apparently they've been trying to reduce usage or find alternatives, but the alternatives aren't demonstrably better.
ycta202249823 4y ago
Honestly never was interested in Patagonia (associated them with Silicon Valley bro types). After learning about the company and its owner from the move they made yesterday I'll probably refresh my wardrobe with some of their products for the coming winter.
- parker_mountain 4y ago
  It's really funny how much of a stereotype it was. I've heard it being referred to as Patagucci, and there was even a puffy vest vending machine in sfo for a year or so (uniqlo, not patagonia)
- insane_dreamer 4y ago
  it's probably as far from SV bro's as you can get
  - uxp100 4y ago
    Not really, most of the “bros” I knew when I worked in SV I would describe as white or Indian men moderately interested in hiking biking and camping. Which makes sense, the Bay Area is stunning. Grab a beer or two afterwards. Have a nice time. (You might detect I’m kinda on the side of the bros here.)
  - _jal 4y ago
    I'm guessing you spent little to no time on Sand Hill Road last decade. The lunch spots could have been ads for Patagonia sweater-vests and Allbirds shoes.
    - insane_dreamer 4y ago
      I meant Yvon isn't like SV bros
  - kodah 4y ago
    Most people just use "Silicon Valley bro" in substitute for "man I don't like that is interested in technology".
rektide 4y ago
Robustly Post-capitalist Desire (shadow title: Capitalist Realism), a Mark Fisher (author of well known k-punk blog, Exiting the Vampire Castle, & many more) lecture series that he suicided during part-way through. Accepts capitalism as utterly unavoidable, as something we have to keep working through, & find objectives through, and tries to imagine what desire & goals might look like in a world that is defined almost exclusively by making more money (slash paperclips), where the invisible hand runs on auto-pilot towards it's own ends. Post-capitalist Desire is now a book with the 5 surviving lectures, and the reading list for the planned course. We've now got like 1/2755 billionaires actually putting up some kind of resistance to the cyclically consumptive desires of capital. Great.

michael1999 4y ago

Chouinard is one classy dude. It's a shame that the US legal system ruined his climbing company. I still have a sentimental old ice harness with the proper diamond logo. It inspires me to see him still doing things his way.

616c 4y ago
Sounds like you have interesting background on the history with a specific perspective Can you share more?
- acranox 4y ago
  https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-05-11-we-3605-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-05-11-we-3605-s...
- michael1999 4y ago
  Rock climbing has a history as a technical part of Alpinism. Over time, some people started to enjoy rock climbing more as a sport, and as an end unto itself, instead of just a sub-skill contributing to mountain ascents. Early 20c rock climbing started to break from the traditional siege mountaineering techniques: fixed ropes, jumars, hammered pins, hooks, etriers, nailed boots, etc. Post war, the availability of nylon, aluminium, chrome-steel, and synthetic rubber opened up the possibilities. Modern big-wall, ice, and clean rock styles developed. Chouinard was part of all these scenes, and big proponent of style. He made equipment, put up hard routes, and evangelized. He was one of many founders of modern "clean" style, using dynamic ropes and clean pro, leaving "nothing but footprints. Many early climbers made their own gear, or bought from a climber who did. But Chouinard (with Tom Frost) really got into it, and improved or invented a bunch of things (e.g. Hexcentrics, the modern ice axe, and then camalots!) that made clean climbing possible and safe(er). Chouinard equipment was from the future. But then the 80's happened, and the diy hippie scene gave way to the lawyers. Some people (novices, window washers, and other untrained people) died when they failed to secure their harness and fell, and the lawsuits looked likely to sink them. You'll notice the colour warnings and liability label around the double-back buckle these days -- that's from these suits. But, ever classy, he declared bankruptcy, sold the hard assets to the employees, and walked away. The logo and his name was consumed by the lawsuits, so the new Black Diamond logo was born. This image[0] shows two Chouinard logos, and then the BD logo. My old harness has the left logo, and I still have an old fimo earring I made to match. No offence meant to the BD people, but their logo will always be wrong to my eye. The wiki does an ok job with the basics[1], but it doesn't catch the mood of it. I started climbing in the 80s, coming up in the Yosemite school. We were absolutely scandalized that someone could try and sue when climbing went wrong -- especially for mis-use of the gear. Self-authority was central to the scene. Smarter people than me also knew there would be all sorts of secondary problems, and the battles over access in the next decades often had liability concerns at their core. It was the end of an era. [0] https://www.gearx.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/shirt2-300x195.jpg [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Diamond_Equipment#History

TimSchumann 4y ago

Discussion on the NY Times article posted yesterday about this announcement. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32842357 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32842357

beebmam 4y ago

It's a demonstrable fact that Carbon Dioxide as a % of the Earth's atmosphere is increasing, and virtually all serious models predict that it will have a significant impact on the planet's average temperature and other characteristics. But there's a big prisoner's dilemma emerging over it, especially as globalism appears to be breaking down between the West and Russia/China. When trade and diplomacy erode to the point of a cold war between the two factions, there's nothing that can be used as leverage to prevent the other parties from cheating on climate agreements. The West can try to tackle climate change in its own countries, but if the actions it takes puts them at a economic/military disadvantage to Russia/China, then it might do far more harm to the future of a free, non-totalitarian world than climate change could.

immigrantheart 4y ago
De-globalization will slow down economy, human activities, resulting in less pollution, less production. As long as there are no world wars, or any war for that matter, I'm all for de-globalization.
- rospaya 4y ago
  You might not have a problem with your phone costing $2000 dollars in that case, but there's so much machinery, equipment, chips, materials and various other products that would massively increase in cost or simply couldn't be produced anywhere else. How would that affect healthcare, education, manufacturing, whatever? I'm guessing that the amount of avoidable deaths that would be caused just because you can't get a chip that you need for a medical diagnostic device would soon be rivaling potential climate change deaths. Climate change needs to be tackled and globalization isn't my favorite thing in the world, but I don't think this is the right way.
  - uoaei 4y ago
    "De-growth" should be understood to mean we will have to give up some things in the name of the greater good. Yours is quite a common argument, but ultimately it is justified by a sense of entitlement of having the technology that is now assumed to be necessary and inevitable. The reality is that we as a civilization have jumped too far, too fast, we don't actually need those things to survive, and we will need to be comfortable temporarily sacrificing certain luxuries to attain a long-lasting sustainable path forward.

immigrantheart 4y ago

Just in time that I would like to buy a winter jacket, seems Patagonia is the brand, if not at least a used one.

uoaei 4y ago
- mandmandam 4y ago
  Everything I've ever seen from Patagonia shows that they actually walk the walk. They source as ethically as possible. Their repair program is unmatched. They pay their workers well. In this story, they did their utmost to ensure their company remains well run, while constantly supporting their goal of protecting nature. So, what exactly is your point here? Of all the companies you could reasonably attack for propaganda - why this one?
  - uoaei 4y ago
    Not saying they are lying about what they are doing, only that they are conscious of what kind of message the PR sends, factored it into their sales forecasts, and are now profiting off of it. It's just business. In general brand loyalty is a consumerist mindset, period. To the extent that Patagonia's actions engender a "rethinking" of "capitalism" they are still inhabiting a space which benefits from encouraging a consumer mindset, which as we know is one of the main cultural forces that continues to push us toward more and more growth, at the behest of the (individualist) consumer, and at the expense of nature. Patagonia's ethics are complicated, as are those of any company who inhabits a system where profit is the dominant motive. Ultimately they are still producing articles primarily made of petrochemicals for one-time (and, occasionally, secondhand) consumption. They do good through advocacy and other initiatives, but one must consider the entire set of nth-order effects that participating in such a system entails, and if you do the accounting you would realize it is a net negative as far as climate impacts go.
remify 4y ago
I've got a Patagonia Parka, I get excited to wear it when it gets cold and rainy. They create amazing products that last long and you get fond of

komape 4y ago

This reminds me of Bosch. The majority of the company is owned by the Robert Bosch Stiftung [1] which gets the most of the profit (after reinvestments into the company) to fund educational projects in the sense of Robert Bosch. In my opinion it's a nice concept to use the profits for things that benefit us. There are still other people in charge of advisories but they don't profit from it. Let us hope that more companies follow the path of Bosch and Patagonia. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_Stiftung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_Stiftung

mperham 4y ago
If you want to learn about another fascinating company, research Rolex.

pphysch 4y ago

A massive PR move for a company in one of the most unnecessarily wasteful industries.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
voisin 4y ago
Would you rather they not make this move? Comments like yours are unnecessarily exhausting. Are they perfect? No. If your standard is to criticize and tear down anyone doing anything less than perfect than you won’t ever be happy. Compared to almost everyone in this industry, this is a major move. How about we applaud it and hope others do the same rather than approach everything with a jaded eye because it doesn’t meet some impossible standard?
- pphysch 4y ago
  I'm calling a spade a spade. It's a huge PR move that aligns with the brand identity. The (former) shareholders will continue to lead luxurious lives. Patagonia will continue to contribute to wasteful fashion and the global oversupply of clothing products. If any net-good is caused by this PR campaign, I will consider it a coincidence.
  - voisin 4y ago
    Patagonia’s pricing and quality can hardly be considered fast fashion! If you think it is contributing to the global oversupply of clothing the what do you propose instead? No clothing unless it is $1000/item and lasts forever? I think you need to reevaluate whether it is truly a spade you are calling a spade or whether your feelings about an entire industry lead you to denigrate every actor, including those imperfect actors who actually show leadership in the industry. Again, what standard do you need to see met in order to be satisfied?
    - pphysch 4y ago
      If Patagonia disappeared tomorrow, the world would not run out of quality clothing. That would be a bold sustainability move!

nostromo 4y ago

I wish they'd use less plastic. It's hard to find anything from Patagonia that uses environmentally-friendly materials. Perhaps they can research a way to make performance fabrics that are better for the earth. Allbirds has been a real pioneer in this space, and they've shown that you can use natural, sustainable materials and produce a product just as good as the others.

dieselgate 4y ago
I’m sure they do use plastic but don’t they also offer a recycled collection or something? Not familiar with it or the availability
flockonus 4y ago
*sustainable is highly disputed, it's unclear any use can be sustainable past a certain scale

Ironlikebike 4y ago

I'm curious what they're going to do, long term, about their use of PFAS (the alleged forever chemicals) in waterproofing. Apparently they've been trying to reduce usage or find alternatives, but the alternatives aren't demonstrably better.

ycta202249823 4y ago

Honestly never was interested in Patagonia (associated them with Silicon Valley bro types). After learning about the company and its owner from the move they made yesterday I'll probably refresh my wardrobe with some of their products for the coming winter.

parker_mountain 4y ago
It's really funny how much of a stereotype it was. I've heard it being referred to as Patagucci, and there was even a puffy vest vending machine in sfo for a year or so (uniqlo, not patagonia)
insane_dreamer 4y ago
it's probably as far from SV bro's as you can get
- uxp100 4y ago
  Not really, most of the “bros” I knew when I worked in SV I would describe as white or Indian men moderately interested in hiking biking and camping. Which makes sense, the Bay Area is stunning. Grab a beer or two afterwards. Have a nice time. (You might detect I’m kinda on the side of the bros here.)
- _jal 4y ago
  I'm guessing you spent little to no time on Sand Hill Road last decade. The lunch spots could have been ads for Patagonia sweater-vests and Allbirds shoes.
  - insane_dreamer 4y ago
    I meant Yvon isn't like SV bros
- kodah 4y ago
  Most people just use "Silicon Valley bro" in substitute for "man I don't like that is interested in technology".

rektide 4y ago

Robustly Post-capitalist Desire (shadow title: Capitalist Realism), a Mark Fisher (author of well known k-punk blog, Exiting the Vampire Castle, & many more) lecture series that he suicided during part-way through. Accepts capitalism as utterly unavoidable, as something we have to keep working through, & find objectives through, and tries to imagine what desire & goals might look like in a world that is defined almost exclusively by making more money (slash paperclips), where the invisible hand runs on auto-pilot towards it's own ends. Post-capitalist Desire is now a book with the 5 surviving lectures, and the reading list for the planned course. We've now got like 1/2755 billionaires actually putting up some kind of resistance to the cyclically consumptive desires of capital. Great.