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So we now have a technical marvel used for financial speculation, conducting illicit transactions, and dodging regulators... that no longer is also burning the

So we now have a technical marvel used for financial speculation, conducting illicit transactions, and dodging regulators... that no longer is also burning the planet. Am I supposed to be impressed by this? It's easy to worship engineering as some kind of pure endeavor divorced from the real world, and admire cleverness for its own sake. But things that actively make the world worse should not necessarily be praised, no matter how clever they are.

OccamsMirror 4y ago
- DangMeatSlurper 4y ago
- tirpen 4y ago
  Virtues are generally more impressive than a cynical mockery of virtues at least.
mratsim 4y ago
> used for financial speculation, conducting illicit transactions, and dodging regulators... https://decrypt.co/66411/cia-bitcoin-surveillance https://decrypt.co/66411/cia-bitcoin-surveillance > Michael Morell, who was previously the CIA’s acting director, said in ‘An Analysis of Bitcoin’s Use in Illicit Finance’ that “blockchain technology is a powerful but underutilized forensic tool for governments to identify illicit activity and bring criminals to justice.” > Tracking illicit Bitcoin transactions is therefore easier than tracing illegal funds moved across borders using “traditional banking transactions” and “far easier” than trying to follow cash, according to the report. > One source in the report was quoted saying that “if all criminals used blockchain, we could wipe out illicit financial activity.” TL;DR cash is a better tool for crime according to an ex CIA director
jliptzin 4y ago
Cash is still best for illicit activities
- silon42 4y ago
  and for privacy
- m12k 4y ago
  Money laundering cash at scale is much, much, much harder than money laundering crypto.
  - pasiaj 4y ago
    I seriously doubt that. Please elaborate why you think this is the case.
  - mratsim 4y ago
    America's underground economy is estimated at 2.5 trillions, 10-12% of GDP: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/032916/how-big-underground-economy-america.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/032916/how-big... The total market cap of ALL crypto is about 1 trillion today. So money laundering at a thousands of billions scale cannot use crypto.
tcgv 4y ago
> So we now have a technical marvel used for financial speculation, conducting illicit transactions, and dodging regulators You're right, it's an impressive piece technology that's been growing through questionable use cases. But that's not the fault of the underlying technology, but of the actors involved. As long as blockchains are treated as a second class citizen, governments choose to ostracize it, financial oligopolies lobby against it, things won't change. But imagine what could be accomplished if governments decided to embrace and properly regulate it, and what it could empower in our society in terms of a more open and acessible socio-economic environment. Let's not blame the technology.
- soulofmischief 4y ago
  Friend, blockchains were designed to circumvent centralized regulation. Fraud is still illegal whether or not you use a funny internet cryptography tool, we don't need to be regulating our tools.
- the_gastropod 4y ago
  "Properly regulate" a thing whose only purpose is to bypass regulation. Seems legit...
  - DangMeatSlurper 4y ago
- solardev 4y ago
  > Let's not blame the technology That sounds like something people say to defend guns, nukes, and crypto. Why wouldn't you blame a technology whose primary use is malignant? It's not like the crypto hellscape we have now was an accident of its evolution. It was the inevitable and predictable outcome of a decentralized and poorly regulated system built atop complex code that the average person has little chance of properly evaluating. From all appearances, this is exactly how they were designed and exactly the point, to extract money from fools and funnel it to a select few crypto bankers. That's not a good thing.
douglaswlance 4y ago
Do you use the shadowy currency popular with criminals known as the US dollar? USD is by far the most popular currency used for crime. It has stable price, accepted everywhere, and lacks a public ledger.
soulofmischief 4y ago
Oy, friend, you ever heard of a prototype? Or burgeoning technology? Do you remember the history of the internal combustion engine?
- spyspy 4y ago
  Basically proving their point. We should have been more critical of the ICE too before we built our whole society around it and let it contribute to destroying our environments.
  - soulofmischief 4y ago
    The engine wasn't the problem, the lack of industry regulation in areas like gas and oil was the problem. Don't blame the tool.
    - jjulius 4y ago
      >Don't blame the tool. Blame both.
WanderPanda 4y ago
worship engineering as some kind of pure endeavor seems much more akin to the HN culture than whorshipping the regulators to me
jasonsync 4y ago
But doesn't a lot "good tech" have nefarious roots? The internet got its start as a government weapon in the Cold War?
- Psyladine 4y ago
  Any tool is a weapon proportional to its power & utility. Beyond that, there's nothing nefarious inherent in weaponry, the DARPA initiatives that birthed the internet were based in defense, against nuclear annihilation. Seems like a win-win, politics non-withstanding.
liuliu 4y ago
> dodging regulators ... With The Merge, that no longer the case, and this is good for Ethereum and for cryptocurrency community.
shemnon42 4y ago
Yes, we should focus on surveillance capitalism instead. Perfectly legal. If you want to talk about actively making the world worse look at most web2 "algorithms" and how the push to the extremes is tolerated by "but numbers go up."

OccamsMirror 4y ago

DangMeatSlurper 4y ago
tirpen 4y ago
Virtues are generally more impressive than a cynical mockery of virtues at least.

mratsim 4y ago

> used for financial speculation, conducting illicit transactions, and dodging regulators... https://decrypt.co/66411/cia-bitcoin-surveillance https://decrypt.co/66411/cia-bitcoin-surveillance > Michael Morell, who was previously the CIA’s acting director, said in ‘An Analysis of Bitcoin’s Use in Illicit Finance’ that “blockchain technology is a powerful but underutilized forensic tool for governments to identify illicit activity and bring criminals to justice.” > Tracking illicit Bitcoin transactions is therefore easier than tracing illegal funds moved across borders using “traditional banking transactions” and “far easier” than trying to follow cash, according to the report. > One source in the report was quoted saying that “if all criminals used blockchain, we could wipe out illicit financial activity.” TL;DR cash is a better tool for crime according to an ex CIA director

jliptzin 4y ago

Cash is still best for illicit activities

silon42 4y ago
and for privacy
m12k 4y ago
Money laundering cash at scale is much, much, much harder than money laundering crypto.
- pasiaj 4y ago
  I seriously doubt that. Please elaborate why you think this is the case.
- mratsim 4y ago
  America's underground economy is estimated at 2.5 trillions, 10-12% of GDP: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/032916/how-big-underground-economy-america.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/032916/how-big... The total market cap of ALL crypto is about 1 trillion today. So money laundering at a thousands of billions scale cannot use crypto.

tcgv 4y ago

> So we now have a technical marvel used for financial speculation, conducting illicit transactions, and dodging regulators You're right, it's an impressive piece technology that's been growing through questionable use cases. But that's not the fault of the underlying technology, but of the actors involved. As long as blockchains are treated as a second class citizen, governments choose to ostracize it, financial oligopolies lobby against it, things won't change. But imagine what could be accomplished if governments decided to embrace and properly regulate it, and what it could empower in our society in terms of a more open and acessible socio-economic environment. Let's not blame the technology.

soulofmischief 4y ago
Friend, blockchains were designed to circumvent centralized regulation. Fraud is still illegal whether or not you use a funny internet cryptography tool, we don't need to be regulating our tools.
the_gastropod 4y ago
"Properly regulate" a thing whose only purpose is to bypass regulation. Seems legit...
- DangMeatSlurper 4y ago
solardev 4y ago
> Let's not blame the technology That sounds like something people say to defend guns, nukes, and crypto. Why wouldn't you blame a technology whose primary use is malignant? It's not like the crypto hellscape we have now was an accident of its evolution. It was the inevitable and predictable outcome of a decentralized and poorly regulated system built atop complex code that the average person has little chance of properly evaluating. From all appearances, this is exactly how they were designed and exactly the point, to extract money from fools and funnel it to a select few crypto bankers. That's not a good thing.

douglaswlance 4y ago

Do you use the shadowy currency popular with criminals known as the US dollar? USD is by far the most popular currency used for crime. It has stable price, accepted everywhere, and lacks a public ledger.

soulofmischief 4y ago

Oy, friend, you ever heard of a prototype? Or burgeoning technology? Do you remember the history of the internal combustion engine?

spyspy 4y ago
Basically proving their point. We should have been more critical of the ICE too before we built our whole society around it and let it contribute to destroying our environments.
- soulofmischief 4y ago
  The engine wasn't the problem, the lack of industry regulation in areas like gas and oil was the problem. Don't blame the tool.
  - jjulius 4y ago
    >Don't blame the tool. Blame both.

WanderPanda 4y ago

worship engineering as some kind of pure endeavor seems much more akin to the HN culture than whorshipping the regulators to me

jasonsync 4y ago

But doesn't a lot "good tech" have nefarious roots? The internet got its start as a government weapon in the Cold War?

Psyladine 4y ago
Any tool is a weapon proportional to its power & utility. Beyond that, there's nothing nefarious inherent in weaponry, the DARPA initiatives that birthed the internet were based in defense, against nuclear annihilation. Seems like a win-win, politics non-withstanding.

liuliu 4y ago

> dodging regulators ... With The Merge, that no longer the case, and this is good for Ethereum and for cryptocurrency community.

shemnon42 4y ago

Yes, we should focus on surveillance capitalism instead. Perfectly legal. If you want to talk about actively making the world worse look at most web2 "algorithms" and how the push to the extremes is tolerated by "but numbers go up."