3 ms·

TIL that "coöperation" is an actual word. The diaeresis is very important in French (we call it tréma). Without this the word naïve instead of "na-iv" would so

TIL that "coöperation" is an actual word. The diaeresis is very important in French (we call it tréma). Without this the word naïve instead of "na-iv" would sound "nev". The first name Loïc instead of "lo-ik" would be "looak" (it is even hard to say it loud for me). And many others. Fortunately we still have the word for waters which is eaux and that we pronounce "o"

wongarsu 4y ago
It's important in French because French tries very hard to have a consistent mapping between spelling and pronunciation. When you read a word you don't know, the spelling tells you how to pronounce it. English seems to have largely given up on this concept.
- BrandoElFollito 4y ago
  Your comment got me thinking, this concept is not obvious for a native French speaker. So we have several words that are pronounced "unexpectedly" (What You Read Is Not What You Pronounce). An example would be the name if the physicist Louis de Broglie, pronounced [dəbʁɔj]. OK, that's a family name so there is some history behind. Then we have words that different people pronounce differently: ananas (pineapple) - some pronounce the "s", some do not. Or the village Avoriaz, same but for the "z". Or Chamonix. But now that I think about this, what you are saying is indeed a thing. My wife's primary languages do not include French and she did not have, I think, major issues when choosing a pronunciation (she had Himalayas of other problems, though).
  - toast0 4y ago
    > Then we have words that different people pronounce differently: ananas (pineapple) - some pronounce the "s", some do not. Or the village Avoriaz, same but for the "z". Or Chamonix. As someone who is only fluent in English but tried to study French for a couple weeks before visting Paris many years ago... Spoken French has institutionalized mumbling; what I read is you're supposed to form the final consonants of words with your mouth, but not voice them... Which ends up in practice with the consonants being pretty much voiced if the next word starts with a vowel and not if not... But I'm not surprised there's some variance. The best written reference I could find (which sadly, I can't find again) was from a Hong Kong university where the writers seemed to have learned both English and French analytically rather than natively, so they would explain the rule for French and compare with the rule(s) for English and expose me to the rules I unconciously followed without knowing they existed. Studying written and spoken French simultaneously was pretty helpful for me, otherwise it was too hard to fill in the ending letters of many words as needed.
    - nerdponx 4y ago
      Interestingly, all of the Romance languages exhibited consonant-dropping in their development. In Spanish and Italian for example, the Latin ending -us became -o. And even as far back as classical Latin, it is believed that the "m" at the end of a word was often nasalized. Apparently this hasn't been a thing for millennia.
  - occamrazor 4y ago
    There are other examples that are much worse for French learners! In _fils_ (son) the _l_ is mute, but the _s_ is pronounced. In _août_ (August), tha _a_ is mute. In _tous_ (all, plural) the _s_ can be mute or not, depending on the sentence. And in _oeuf_ (egg) the f is pronounced, but in the plural _oeufs_ it isn't! A special mention to _Monsieur_ (Mister), which is pronounced as if it was written _Messieur_.

wongarsu 4y ago

It's important in French because French tries very hard to have a consistent mapping between spelling and pronunciation. When you read a word you don't know, the spelling tells you how to pronounce it. English seems to have largely given up on this concept.

BrandoElFollito 4y ago
Your comment got me thinking, this concept is not obvious for a native French speaker. So we have several words that are pronounced "unexpectedly" (What You Read Is Not What You Pronounce). An example would be the name if the physicist Louis de Broglie, pronounced [dəbʁɔj]. OK, that's a family name so there is some history behind. Then we have words that different people pronounce differently: ananas (pineapple) - some pronounce the "s", some do not. Or the village Avoriaz, same but for the "z". Or Chamonix. But now that I think about this, what you are saying is indeed a thing. My wife's primary languages do not include French and she did not have, I think, major issues when choosing a pronunciation (she had Himalayas of other problems, though).
- toast0 4y ago
  > Then we have words that different people pronounce differently: ananas (pineapple) - some pronounce the "s", some do not. Or the village Avoriaz, same but for the "z". Or Chamonix. As someone who is only fluent in English but tried to study French for a couple weeks before visting Paris many years ago... Spoken French has institutionalized mumbling; what I read is you're supposed to form the final consonants of words with your mouth, but not voice them... Which ends up in practice with the consonants being pretty much voiced if the next word starts with a vowel and not if not... But I'm not surprised there's some variance. The best written reference I could find (which sadly, I can't find again) was from a Hong Kong university where the writers seemed to have learned both English and French analytically rather than natively, so they would explain the rule for French and compare with the rule(s) for English and expose me to the rules I unconciously followed without knowing they existed. Studying written and spoken French simultaneously was pretty helpful for me, otherwise it was too hard to fill in the ending letters of many words as needed.
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    Interestingly, all of the Romance languages exhibited consonant-dropping in their development. In Spanish and Italian for example, the Latin ending -us became -o. And even as far back as classical Latin, it is believed that the "m" at the end of a word was often nasalized. Apparently this hasn't been a thing for millennia.
- occamrazor 4y ago
  There are other examples that are much worse for French learners! In _fils_ (son) the _l_ is mute, but the _s_ is pronounced. In _août_ (August), tha _a_ is mute. In _tous_ (all, plural) the _s_ can be mute or not, depending on the sentence. And in _oeuf_ (egg) the f is pronounced, but in the plural _oeufs_ it isn't! A special mention to _Monsieur_ (Mister), which is pronounced as if it was written _Messieur_.