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in pure Euro no they went up a bit but definitly lower than the cost of living increase. the problem is that in the past decade Europe welcomed Cyprus, Czech Re

in pure Euro no they went up a bit but definitly lower than the cost of living increase. the problem is that in the past decade Europe welcomed Cyprus, Czech Republic,Estonia,Hungary,Latvia, Lithuania,Malta , Poland ,Slovakia,Slovenia,Bulgaria ,Romania, Croatia. Most of those countries were below living standards/salaries of western europe while having for some of them a very strong education system. Romania for instance trains a lot of good devs/it ops. All this qualified workforce can work in any country of europe. Add to this qualified workforce from syria/turkey for germany, North Africa for france and you see that while European companies did not grow like the US one, the pool of talent they can grab is larger than ever. the cake became smaller and Europe did everything it could toblock ambitious tech companies to grow and use the stock market as a wealth tool. they don't even understand that they operate in a global market and that if they tax or limit growth in their own country then the companies will move out. Dublin and Amsterdam for instance became hubs for this reason. There is also the perception in the old world that being a "Techie" is like being a white collar factory worker. Developers are definitly not considered as stars in Europe. Most of the engineers in europe that want to make money work for an american company.

walthamstow 4y ago
All the countries you mention apart from Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia were admitted in 2004, which is nearly 20 years ago now.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  The effects took time to manifest. Now they slowed down.
- finikytou 4y ago
  it is europe. things go slow but once they are in motion... they first used those countries for lowering blue collar jobs (construction for instance) then white collar, the cloud/saas craze was an accelerator. the covid is one too.
badpun 4y ago
> Most of the engineers in europe that want to make money work for an american company. From my experience, most of engineers in Europe who want to make money work are contracting. Contracting money can be similar to what the FAANGs offer here (outside of Switzerland), but taxes are often lower and you don't have to debase yourself with multistage leetcode interviews and intracompany promotion games. However, the US companies may start to up their game here salary-wise - I was recently contacted by a recruiter of a Tier 2 US tech company who said that the TC for a tech lead position in their branch in Poland is around 220k EUR. I hope this is a part of a larger trend.
- finikytou 4y ago
  in many european countries tax will be 50% for contracting. to make 150k you need to make 300k... you cant take days-off,sick-days, might even need to make more for retirment match vs normal job... it is really not a good way to make money
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >in many european countries tax will be 50% for contracting This! Contracting is the way if your country of residence has low taxes for freelancers, but if its' the same or higher as a FTE then it sucks.
ethbr0 4y ago
Hasn't this been the Dutch playbook, since ~1600? "Look at how much more freedom we give capital than the rest of Europe!" etc.
oxff 4y ago
Yeah I was taking into account cost of living increases and inflation when I wrote it, it's quite grim to live in Western Europe on regular dev salary :D
- 2rsf 4y ago
  > it's quite grim to live in Western Europe on regular dev salary No it's not. We still earn above average and (very) generally life in Europe are not grim.
  - finikytou 4y ago
    it is not grim but getting a family-home with a dev salary is out of the picture for many western europeans. it wasn't the case one generation ago. american dev can definitly afford a house even in HCOL cities. for a similar job at AWS or Google you getting 550k+ in NYC vs 200k in London or Paris. just looking at real estate (which is number 1 cost) it is worth moving to NYC. just to give you an idea: MIDTOWN next to bryant park 1 400 000k$ https://ibb.co/m4bPcXR https://ibb.co/m4bPcXR decent location in paris (definitely not top tier like next to Bryant park) 1 300 000 Euros https://ibb.co/kx8BXh2 https://ibb.co/kx8BXh2 why every time we say life became harder/more expensive we get comments saying its not that grim? this is how it starts. first steps are to reduce government benefits (retirement age further, unemployement benefits shorter,...-
    - jltsiren 4y ago
      London and Paris are expensive, but they are not the norm. Home ownership is still affordable to dual-income middle-class families in Western Europe, and there are plenty of nice cities to choose from. In many larger cities, central locations are ridiculously expensive. Once you get further away from the center, prices drop quickly. Because the society is less car-centric, location has a bigger impact on home prices than in the US.
      - finikytou 4y ago
        well city center or further in the city is 10kSQM in paris minimum that still puts the house into unaffordable territory with a european salary of ~80k for a senior dev. germany is a bit different because they have multiple job cities but take other countries. London vs other english cities job market will be night and day. Same for paris. You just don't get the same opportunities in smaller cities. Spain same. Portugal same. and the list goes on.
yrgulation 4y ago
Have you considered moving to those countries for better pay? It sad to hear pay is so bad in germany, probably getting quality education in romania or turkey might help? At the end of the day you are also free to move in to any of these countries.
- finikytou 4y ago
  you don't understand how economics work right? ask mexicans how happy they are to have high earning americans moving to mexico? https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-07-27/americans-are-flooding-mexico-city-some-mexicans-want-them-to-go-home https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-07-27/americ.... once you remove a country frontier, the market forces that are leashed to that country will be destroyed. radically transforming the country economy in ways that no one in this country but the 1% will benefit.
  - yrgulation 4y ago
    I think i understand. It’s a bit like removing borders destroyed car industries in a few countries, because germany could suddenly sell their cars and machinery import tax free. Radically transforming these industries in europe and america alike. Makes sense.

walthamstow 4y ago

All the countries you mention apart from Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia were admitted in 2004, which is nearly 20 years ago now.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
The effects took time to manifest. Now they slowed down.
finikytou 4y ago
it is europe. things go slow but once they are in motion... they first used those countries for lowering blue collar jobs (construction for instance) then white collar, the cloud/saas craze was an accelerator. the covid is one too.

badpun 4y ago

> Most of the engineers in europe that want to make money work for an american company. From my experience, most of engineers in Europe who want to make money work are contracting. Contracting money can be similar to what the FAANGs offer here (outside of Switzerland), but taxes are often lower and you don't have to debase yourself with multistage leetcode interviews and intracompany promotion games. However, the US companies may start to up their game here salary-wise - I was recently contacted by a recruiter of a Tier 2 US tech company who said that the TC for a tech lead position in their branch in Poland is around 220k EUR. I hope this is a part of a larger trend.

finikytou 4y ago
in many european countries tax will be 50% for contracting. to make 150k you need to make 300k... you cant take days-off,sick-days, might even need to make more for retirment match vs normal job... it is really not a good way to make money
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >in many european countries tax will be 50% for contracting This! Contracting is the way if your country of residence has low taxes for freelancers, but if its' the same or higher as a FTE then it sucks.

ethbr0 4y ago

Hasn't this been the Dutch playbook, since ~1600? "Look at how much more freedom we give capital than the rest of Europe!" etc.

oxff 4y ago

Yeah I was taking into account cost of living increases and inflation when I wrote it, it's quite grim to live in Western Europe on regular dev salary :D

2rsf 4y ago
> it's quite grim to live in Western Europe on regular dev salary No it's not. We still earn above average and (very) generally life in Europe are not grim.
- finikytou 4y ago
  it is not grim but getting a family-home with a dev salary is out of the picture for many western europeans. it wasn't the case one generation ago. american dev can definitly afford a house even in HCOL cities. for a similar job at AWS or Google you getting 550k+ in NYC vs 200k in London or Paris. just looking at real estate (which is number 1 cost) it is worth moving to NYC. just to give you an idea: MIDTOWN next to bryant park 1 400 000k$ https://ibb.co/m4bPcXR https://ibb.co/m4bPcXR decent location in paris (definitely not top tier like next to Bryant park) 1 300 000 Euros https://ibb.co/kx8BXh2 https://ibb.co/kx8BXh2 why every time we say life became harder/more expensive we get comments saying its not that grim? this is how it starts. first steps are to reduce government benefits (retirement age further, unemployement benefits shorter,...-
  - jltsiren 4y ago
    London and Paris are expensive, but they are not the norm. Home ownership is still affordable to dual-income middle-class families in Western Europe, and there are plenty of nice cities to choose from. In many larger cities, central locations are ridiculously expensive. Once you get further away from the center, prices drop quickly. Because the society is less car-centric, location has a bigger impact on home prices than in the US.
    - finikytou 4y ago
      well city center or further in the city is 10kSQM in paris minimum that still puts the house into unaffordable territory with a european salary of ~80k for a senior dev. germany is a bit different because they have multiple job cities but take other countries. London vs other english cities job market will be night and day. Same for paris. You just don't get the same opportunities in smaller cities. Spain same. Portugal same. and the list goes on.

yrgulation 4y ago

Have you considered moving to those countries for better pay? It sad to hear pay is so bad in germany, probably getting quality education in romania or turkey might help? At the end of the day you are also free to move in to any of these countries.

finikytou 4y ago
you don't understand how economics work right? ask mexicans how happy they are to have high earning americans moving to mexico? https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-07-27/americans-are-flooding-mexico-city-some-mexicans-want-them-to-go-home https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-07-27/americ.... once you remove a country frontier, the market forces that are leashed to that country will be destroyed. radically transforming the country economy in ways that no one in this country but the 1% will benefit.
- yrgulation 4y ago
  I think i understand. It’s a bit like removing borders destroyed car industries in a few countries, because germany could suddenly sell their cars and machinery import tax free. Radically transforming these industries in europe and america alike. Makes sense.