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The failure is that we think Chouinard wholly created this value and deserves this extreme concentration of the wealth created by the Patagonia company instead

The failure is that we think Chouinard wholly created this value and deserves this extreme concentration of the wealth created by the Patagonia company instead of the many, many, many people that gave their lifetimes and labour toward furthering the goals of the Patagonia company.

eternalban 4y ago
So this boils down to us lacking a fair and effective valuation methodology for leadership, which includes psychological aspects that possibly can't be objectively quantified. p.s. Possibly a feedback mechanism where each contributor votes a fraction back to the person/team in charge and valuation (compensation) emerges that way.
- FredPret 4y ago
  We have a system for this already. You vote using money.
cloutchaser 4y ago
> many, many, many people that gave their lifetimes and labour toward furthering the goals of the Patagonia company And they could leave at any point, they are paid for their work within 30 days. They take 0 risk. As an entrepreneur for 20 years, I used to believe employees believe in companies and missions, but they don't, 99% of the time. They get paid for 30 days work, on time, and if they get a better offer they leave. I'm sorry but that is 0 risk compared to what an entrepreneur does. People like yourself clearly have no idea how much responsibility and risk, and emotional strain an entrepreneur takes on, while employing people and paying them monthly. There is no comparison. Don't expect people who take 0 risk to become millionaires. It's a ridiculous proposition. If that were the case "everyone" would be a millionaire, or a professional sports person, or an influencers, or whatever. Taking risk, and building things yourself is much much harder. People who have never done it don't understand.
- gabrielgio 4y ago
  I can't comment on how much harder it is for a person to be a bussiness owner as problably we don't live in the same country and we don't live under the same laws/regulation, otherwise I'd challenge that. > They take 0 risk. For wealthy worker problably, but for labor worker is not risky free. > building things yourself is much much harder Unless you work alone you don't build things yourself. > People like yourself clearly have no idea how much responsibility and risk, and emotional strain an entrepreneur takes on It seems like you don't have idea how hard it is to be in the bottom layer of the wealth distribution. > Don't expect people who take 0 risk to become millionaires. I don't think no one in this thread meant that. They are just advocating for better wealth distribution.
- the_other 4y ago
  > As an entrepreneur for 20 years, I used to believe employees believe in companies and missions, but they don't, 99% of the time. They get paid for 30 days work, on time, and if they get a better offer they leave. Did you offer those employees a chance to have a stake, to take a risk and share in the bigger reward than just their salary? I mean, in a meaningful way that had the potential to change their quality of life if it paid off? Were you willing to share the reward? If you didn't offer such an opportunity, you can't complain that the staff didn't contribute to the level you hoped.
  - cloutchaser 4y ago
    That's probably true, but it's not the point. People choose to become employees, and are taken care of in an extremely risk free way. Just ask any freelancer how different it is to being an entrepreneur, even that change is a massive difference, you have to actually invoice and chase clients for payments, you have to take risk in whether you will actually be paid for work, etc. Now just take it a step further for someone who is risking their capital, reputation, and time on creating something new, that might only make any revenue in 12-16 months, or never. And it might bankrupt them, lose their reputation etc. At a minimum that's 12-16x more risk than even a freelancer. Oh and if insane people like myself didn't take this risk, the world would probably still be a foraging bunch of tribes. And you get hated for it for getting rich by exploiting people... You have no idea about life, to be honest.
refurb 4y ago
That's kind of a funny take considering it was Chouinard's own choices that made him a billionaire, no? He very easily could have given equity away to the employees and spread it around. Or had exceedingly generous profit sharing. But he didn't. He ended up with all the equity at the end, and thus the billionaire.

eternalban 4y ago

So this boils down to us lacking a fair and effective valuation methodology for leadership, which includes psychological aspects that possibly can't be objectively quantified. p.s. Possibly a feedback mechanism where each contributor votes a fraction back to the person/team in charge and valuation (compensation) emerges that way.

FredPret 4y ago
We have a system for this already. You vote using money.

cloutchaser 4y ago

> many, many, many people that gave their lifetimes and labour toward furthering the goals of the Patagonia company And they could leave at any point, they are paid for their work within 30 days. They take 0 risk. As an entrepreneur for 20 years, I used to believe employees believe in companies and missions, but they don't, 99% of the time. They get paid for 30 days work, on time, and if they get a better offer they leave. I'm sorry but that is 0 risk compared to what an entrepreneur does. People like yourself clearly have no idea how much responsibility and risk, and emotional strain an entrepreneur takes on, while employing people and paying them monthly. There is no comparison. Don't expect people who take 0 risk to become millionaires. It's a ridiculous proposition. If that were the case "everyone" would be a millionaire, or a professional sports person, or an influencers, or whatever. Taking risk, and building things yourself is much much harder. People who have never done it don't understand.

gabrielgio 4y ago
I can't comment on how much harder it is for a person to be a bussiness owner as problably we don't live in the same country and we don't live under the same laws/regulation, otherwise I'd challenge that. > They take 0 risk. For wealthy worker problably, but for labor worker is not risky free. > building things yourself is much much harder Unless you work alone you don't build things yourself. > People like yourself clearly have no idea how much responsibility and risk, and emotional strain an entrepreneur takes on It seems like you don't have idea how hard it is to be in the bottom layer of the wealth distribution. > Don't expect people who take 0 risk to become millionaires. I don't think no one in this thread meant that. They are just advocating for better wealth distribution.
the_other 4y ago
> As an entrepreneur for 20 years, I used to believe employees believe in companies and missions, but they don't, 99% of the time. They get paid for 30 days work, on time, and if they get a better offer they leave. Did you offer those employees a chance to have a stake, to take a risk and share in the bigger reward than just their salary? I mean, in a meaningful way that had the potential to change their quality of life if it paid off? Were you willing to share the reward? If you didn't offer such an opportunity, you can't complain that the staff didn't contribute to the level you hoped.
- cloutchaser 4y ago
  That's probably true, but it's not the point. People choose to become employees, and are taken care of in an extremely risk free way. Just ask any freelancer how different it is to being an entrepreneur, even that change is a massive difference, you have to actually invoice and chase clients for payments, you have to take risk in whether you will actually be paid for work, etc. Now just take it a step further for someone who is risking their capital, reputation, and time on creating something new, that might only make any revenue in 12-16 months, or never. And it might bankrupt them, lose their reputation etc. At a minimum that's 12-16x more risk than even a freelancer. Oh and if insane people like myself didn't take this risk, the world would probably still be a foraging bunch of tribes. And you get hated for it for getting rich by exploiting people... You have no idea about life, to be honest.

refurb 4y ago

That's kind of a funny take considering it was Chouinard's own choices that made him a billionaire, no? He very easily could have given equity away to the employees and spread it around. Or had exceedingly generous profit sharing. But he didn't. He ended up with all the equity at the end, and thus the billionaire.