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One of the main issues is putting autopilots in trains and cutting the actual human staff to one person. I can't imagine being the only person on a train in the

One of the main issues is putting autopilots in trains and cutting the actual human staff to one person. I can't imagine being the only person on a train in the middle of nowhere in the middle of winter and something goes wrong. Edit: I relayed what I read here: Why Railroad Workers Like Me Are Planning to Strike This Friday | Opinion https://www.newsweek.com/why-railroad-workers-like-me-are-planning-strike-this-friday-opinion-1742513 https://www.newsweek.com/why-railroad-workers-like-me-are-pl... In the last few years, the railroad companies have mounted an assault on labor, costing livelihoods and sacrificing worker safety to a point where we just can't go on. For starters, railroad companies have adopted something called "positive train control" or PTC for short. PTC is basically autopilot for trains. It's a great piece of technology, but since adopting it, companies have decided that the conductor role is obsolete, and you just need an engineer to take care of the train. In an effort to save money, the railroads have been pushing for a single-man crew the last few years, with the biggest freight railroads reducing staff by 29 percent. I'm all for better technology. But it has to be safe. And there's a big problem with eliminating the role of the conductor. One of the major things the conductor does is if there is an issue with the train, some sort of defect with a railcar, say, the conductor goes out and checks what the issue is while the engineer stays in the cab to control the train.

jonp888 4y ago
The New York Subway is probably the only major metro system in the world which has two person operation. Not quite sure why the Americans can't figure it out. Single manned freight trains are common worldwide too. What is the second person supposed to do - get out and push?
- quarterdime 4y ago
  > What is the second person supposed to do - get out and push? Despite the relatively low rolling resistance, even a single rail car is too heavy for a human to push. I am not a railroad worker so I may have this wrong. But there are a number of reasons that a second (or third) person is a big help from a practical or safety standpoint. For example, if you are picking up a car (adding it to the train), the engineer will drive the locomotive forward/back while in radio contact with a person on the ground. The person on the ground will confirm the couplings closed properly, and connect air lines for brake system. Doing this with two or three people over the radio is faster, easier, and probably safer. I think one of the safety concerns here is a coupling that has closed incompletely or improperly: if it lets go as the train climbs a grade, you can have a loose car (or a string of cars) on the track. If I understand correctly, you want to watch the coupling "catch" as the train inches forward. Maybe there is a sensor-based solution, but I am not sure. Another advantage for a second (or third) crew member is safety. If there is a derailment and a solo crew, that person stays with the locomotive and reports the accident. Someone has to drive to the scene (in most cases by road). This adds a lot of time. In the event of a derailment, this time is a big safety concern. A lot of hazmat (chlorine, ammonia, chemicals, hydrocarbons) are shipped by rail. I am sure there is quality of life as well. Being alone is far more difficult psychologically. In the end, we can say "US freight should have single person crews" all we want, but good luck finding a labor force willing to do it. The rail industry is struggling to recruit and retain workers. Switching to single person crews would not help if half of the workers quit.
- michaelwww 4y ago
  The debate is ongoing, not a no brainer as you imply: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-person_operation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-person_operation
dragontamer 4y ago
Washington Post reports: > The remaining issues under dispute revolve around points-based attendance policies for conductors and engineers that penalize them for going to routine doctor visits or responding to family medical emergencies. ... > “I know for sure with covid out there nobody is even testing themselves because they don’t want to lose points,” said Jordan Boone, 41, a BNSF conductor in Galesburg, Ill., and member of SMART-TED. “I have five kids, and I’ve always missed the kids’ soccer and baseball games and cheerleading, but the new attendance policies make it impossible to go to anything.” I haven't heard about this 2-person vs 1-person train-automation thing at all actually.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- michaelwww 4y ago
  In case you don't see my edit: https://www.newsweek.com/why-railroad-workers-like-me-are-planning-strike-this-friday-opinion-1742513 https://www.newsweek.com/why-railroad-workers-like-me-are-pl... I'm imaging a scenario where you're crossing the Great Basin in Utah going West, then across the vast empty areas of Nevada in the dead of winter by yourself. There's a problem. A hose breaks. You have to get out an walk the train. You fall on the ice and break a leg. Now you're lying there in the snow by yourself with a dead train staring at the stars. The stars are spectacular though.
quarterdime 4y ago
This is a great point. A lot of ideas pushed by managers (like one person train crews) have been of the "sounds good on paper" variety. Adding and adding to the length of trains. Replacing (human) wheel inspectors with automation. Replacing (human) schedulers with software. Cutting the crew size on trains as you point out. In practice, the increased train length seems to have increased the frequency and magnitude of accidents. And increasing the number of cars in a train is not guaranteed to increase efficiency. About inspection of wheels, automation might sound like a good idea, but it doesn't seem to be working. Stand next to a moving freight train today, and odds are very good that you will hear a BOOM-BOOM-BOOM from a surprising number of cars as they go by. These are flat spots on wheels. I do not think this is good for the freight, the cars, or the rails. My personal observation is that this is new. Even a decade ago, I do not remember routinely noticing this. But today, it seems a significant percentage of cars roll by with big flat spots on their wheels. This is out of my area of expertise, so I may be way off on this "flat spot" story. The software for scheduling seems to be chaotic at best. The railroads have responded by pretty much putting all employees on call all the time. This seems to be one of the workers' biggest complaints: they are pretty much 24x7x365 on call, and it is not surprising that they are angry. When I say they're angry: in July the BLET (Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainment) voted over 99% in favor of a strike. Cutting crew size too is kicking peoples' butts. For example to pick up a car alone would require a massive amount of running back and forth from the front to the back of the train. From a safety standpoint: a single person crew has to remain at the engine in the case of an accident or derailment, and someone has to drive to the scene to assess the scene. If there is a two person crew, the second person can walk down the line and report (for example) that there may be a chlorine car leaking[0]. I know a few people second hand on both sides of the who work in industries that ship freight via rail, and people who work on the railroads. Both sides have been describing chaos and mismanagement for years (predating pandemic). Pay on the railroad is fairly good, but the lifestyle is extremely demanding. Policies over the last decade have made it a worse and worse industry to work in. Strike or not, the railroads are getting deeper and deeper into a worker shortage. I think they need a better (for workers) contract just as much as the workers do. [0] https://inthesetimes.com/episodes/jay https://inthesetimes.com/episodes/jay - 100% worth a listen
landemva 4y ago
> I can't imagine being the only person on a train in the middle of nowhere in the middle of winter and something goes wrong. I can imagine it - do a shutdown, call it in, and put a coat and hat on. There are lots of bad jobs that tech folks can't imagine. Go repair a rock crusher / screen / wheel loader by yourself after hours at a mine site, and hope Ms. MSHA doesn't show up and see you not tied off from above the equipment. All the warnings and signage don't apply to the mechanic fixing the equipment, but MSHA fines still apply. Some people don't have a lot of career choices.
- michaelwww 4y ago
  I'm a programmer yes, but I've also driven trucks and buses for a living. I've also done road trips across America and seen how empty most of it is. Being all by yourself in the middle of nowhere in a blizzard and having to walk the train seems like a safety issue to me.
  - landemva 4y ago
    Fixing and testing a large excavator by myself, then being on boom while hydraulic hose breaks in engine bay could have been a situation. I noticed old faithful shooting out of engine bay because boom that I was on dropped the inches to dirt when hyd hose broke. Climb down, climb up to cab, key off, call boss, clean up the mess. I have been a mechanic on a crusher at night when it was snowing and it was a thirty minute drive to cell phone reception. This is the world we, or some of us, live in. There is risk. Mitigate risk and then do the job. If a train is on the ground and stopped and dispatcher knows then there is little danger to anyone. Mines in Australia are big users of autonomous haul trucks and autonomous trains initially because of lack of workers. Now they find there are zero driver injuries. Will those people who were driving be capable of learning a keyboard career? My experience and your speculation could have a meaningful article of why there is such polarity of views in USA. Instead of speculating what-about-broken-legism, look at MSHA miner fatality reports or OSHA train track walking injury reports.
dave78 4y ago
PTC is a safety system. Describing it as an "autopilot" seems like an exaggeration to me, though I suppose it may automate some tasks that a conductor may have done before. It was also mandated by federal regulation and from everything I ever heard about it, it was done begrudgingly by the railroads as it is expensive and adds complexity and new failure modes. The commuter trains in my area are now frequently delayed due to "PTC issues".
landemva 4y ago
> One of the main issues is putting autopilots in trains Why is autopilot an issue in USA when Australia touts it? https://www.firstpost.com/tech/science/driverless-mining-train-in-australia-claimed-as-the-worlds-largest-robot-5808771.html https://www.firstpost.com/tech/science/driverless-mining-tra... Boeing 737MAX used software autopilot named MCAS to cover up design issue of engines being too far forward. Boeing failed to tell FAA or pilots about the software easter egg, and the structural design flaw is still flying. Where are the criminal charges for deaths caused by that? People still knowingly board that plane.

jonp888 4y ago

The New York Subway is probably the only major metro system in the world which has two person operation. Not quite sure why the Americans can't figure it out. Single manned freight trains are common worldwide too. What is the second person supposed to do - get out and push?

quarterdime 4y ago
> What is the second person supposed to do - get out and push? Despite the relatively low rolling resistance, even a single rail car is too heavy for a human to push. I am not a railroad worker so I may have this wrong. But there are a number of reasons that a second (or third) person is a big help from a practical or safety standpoint. For example, if you are picking up a car (adding it to the train), the engineer will drive the locomotive forward/back while in radio contact with a person on the ground. The person on the ground will confirm the couplings closed properly, and connect air lines for brake system. Doing this with two or three people over the radio is faster, easier, and probably safer. I think one of the safety concerns here is a coupling that has closed incompletely or improperly: if it lets go as the train climbs a grade, you can have a loose car (or a string of cars) on the track. If I understand correctly, you want to watch the coupling "catch" as the train inches forward. Maybe there is a sensor-based solution, but I am not sure. Another advantage for a second (or third) crew member is safety. If there is a derailment and a solo crew, that person stays with the locomotive and reports the accident. Someone has to drive to the scene (in most cases by road). This adds a lot of time. In the event of a derailment, this time is a big safety concern. A lot of hazmat (chlorine, ammonia, chemicals, hydrocarbons) are shipped by rail. I am sure there is quality of life as well. Being alone is far more difficult psychologically. In the end, we can say "US freight should have single person crews" all we want, but good luck finding a labor force willing to do it. The rail industry is struggling to recruit and retain workers. Switching to single person crews would not help if half of the workers quit.
michaelwww 4y ago
The debate is ongoing, not a no brainer as you imply: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-person_operation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-person_operation

dragontamer 4y ago

Washington Post reports: > The remaining issues under dispute revolve around points-based attendance policies for conductors and engineers that penalize them for going to routine doctor visits or responding to family medical emergencies. ... > “I know for sure with covid out there nobody is even testing themselves because they don’t want to lose points,” said Jordan Boone, 41, a BNSF conductor in Galesburg, Ill., and member of SMART-TED. “I have five kids, and I’ve always missed the kids’ soccer and baseball games and cheerleading, but the new attendance policies make it impossible to go to anything.” I haven't heard about this 2-person vs 1-person train-automation thing at all actually.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
michaelwww 4y ago
In case you don't see my edit: https://www.newsweek.com/why-railroad-workers-like-me-are-planning-strike-this-friday-opinion-1742513 https://www.newsweek.com/why-railroad-workers-like-me-are-pl... I'm imaging a scenario where you're crossing the Great Basin in Utah going West, then across the vast empty areas of Nevada in the dead of winter by yourself. There's a problem. A hose breaks. You have to get out an walk the train. You fall on the ice and break a leg. Now you're lying there in the snow by yourself with a dead train staring at the stars. The stars are spectacular though.

quarterdime 4y ago

This is a great point. A lot of ideas pushed by managers (like one person train crews) have been of the "sounds good on paper" variety. Adding and adding to the length of trains. Replacing (human) wheel inspectors with automation. Replacing (human) schedulers with software. Cutting the crew size on trains as you point out. In practice, the increased train length seems to have increased the frequency and magnitude of accidents. And increasing the number of cars in a train is not guaranteed to increase efficiency. About inspection of wheels, automation might sound like a good idea, but it doesn't seem to be working. Stand next to a moving freight train today, and odds are very good that you will hear a BOOM-BOOM-BOOM from a surprising number of cars as they go by. These are flat spots on wheels. I do not think this is good for the freight, the cars, or the rails. My personal observation is that this is new. Even a decade ago, I do not remember routinely noticing this. But today, it seems a significant percentage of cars roll by with big flat spots on their wheels. This is out of my area of expertise, so I may be way off on this "flat spot" story. The software for scheduling seems to be chaotic at best. The railroads have responded by pretty much putting all employees on call all the time. This seems to be one of the workers' biggest complaints: they are pretty much 24x7x365 on call, and it is not surprising that they are angry. When I say they're angry: in July the BLET (Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainment) voted over 99% in favor of a strike. Cutting crew size too is kicking peoples' butts. For example to pick up a car alone would require a massive amount of running back and forth from the front to the back of the train. From a safety standpoint: a single person crew has to remain at the engine in the case of an accident or derailment, and someone has to drive to the scene to assess the scene. If there is a two person crew, the second person can walk down the line and report (for example) that there may be a chlorine car leaking[0]. I know a few people second hand on both sides of the who work in industries that ship freight via rail, and people who work on the railroads. Both sides have been describing chaos and mismanagement for years (predating pandemic). Pay on the railroad is fairly good, but the lifestyle is extremely demanding. Policies over the last decade have made it a worse and worse industry to work in. Strike or not, the railroads are getting deeper and deeper into a worker shortage. I think they need a better (for workers) contract just as much as the workers do. [0] https://inthesetimes.com/episodes/jay https://inthesetimes.com/episodes/jay - 100% worth a listen

landemva 4y ago

> I can't imagine being the only person on a train in the middle of nowhere in the middle of winter and something goes wrong. I can imagine it - do a shutdown, call it in, and put a coat and hat on. There are lots of bad jobs that tech folks can't imagine. Go repair a rock crusher / screen / wheel loader by yourself after hours at a mine site, and hope Ms. MSHA doesn't show up and see you not tied off from above the equipment. All the warnings and signage don't apply to the mechanic fixing the equipment, but MSHA fines still apply. Some people don't have a lot of career choices.

michaelwww 4y ago
I'm a programmer yes, but I've also driven trucks and buses for a living. I've also done road trips across America and seen how empty most of it is. Being all by yourself in the middle of nowhere in a blizzard and having to walk the train seems like a safety issue to me.
- landemva 4y ago
  Fixing and testing a large excavator by myself, then being on boom while hydraulic hose breaks in engine bay could have been a situation. I noticed old faithful shooting out of engine bay because boom that I was on dropped the inches to dirt when hyd hose broke. Climb down, climb up to cab, key off, call boss, clean up the mess. I have been a mechanic on a crusher at night when it was snowing and it was a thirty minute drive to cell phone reception. This is the world we, or some of us, live in. There is risk. Mitigate risk and then do the job. If a train is on the ground and stopped and dispatcher knows then there is little danger to anyone. Mines in Australia are big users of autonomous haul trucks and autonomous trains initially because of lack of workers. Now they find there are zero driver injuries. Will those people who were driving be capable of learning a keyboard career? My experience and your speculation could have a meaningful article of why there is such polarity of views in USA. Instead of speculating what-about-broken-legism, look at MSHA miner fatality reports or OSHA train track walking injury reports.

dave78 4y ago

PTC is a safety system. Describing it as an "autopilot" seems like an exaggeration to me, though I suppose it may automate some tasks that a conductor may have done before. It was also mandated by federal regulation and from everything I ever heard about it, it was done begrudgingly by the railroads as it is expensive and adds complexity and new failure modes. The commuter trains in my area are now frequently delayed due to "PTC issues".

landemva 4y ago

> One of the main issues is putting autopilots in trains Why is autopilot an issue in USA when Australia touts it? https://www.firstpost.com/tech/science/driverless-mining-train-in-australia-claimed-as-the-worlds-largest-robot-5808771.html https://www.firstpost.com/tech/science/driverless-mining-tra... Boeing 737MAX used software autopilot named MCAS to cover up design issue of engines being too far forward. Boeing failed to tell FAA or pilots about the software easter egg, and the structural design flaw is still flying. Where are the criminal charges for deaths caused by that? People still knowingly board that plane.