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We should stop invoking Alan Kay's ancient opinion in OOP discussions. I suggest we rebrand his flavour of programming as "message oriented programming" (MOP),

We should stop invoking Alan Kay's ancient opinion in OOP discussions. I suggest we rebrand his flavour of programming as "message oriented programming" (MOP), thank it for its continuing contributions to the field, and recognize that contemporary OOP is a valid but different solution space.

felideon 4y ago
Clarity is certainly important, in which case I could have said “OOP should have been...” Except: Smalltalk still lives (Squeak) and Erlang takes messaging to the extreme.
- Twisol 4y ago
  I've not used Erlang much, really, but it seems like a really nice fusion of messaging across agents and immutable state within agents. Elixir has long been on my list of languages to properly pick up...
deleted 4y ago
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samatman 4y ago
Rather, we should insist on calling object oriented programming what it is, and come up with an acronym for the poor imitations. How about Class-Reified Abstract Programming? If the shoe fits...
- Existenceblinks 4y ago
  In this era, DeepClass is a kool name.
  - danielam 4y ago
    Too much mutation leads to deep state.
- gmfawcett 4y ago
  Modern OOP isn't a poor imitation of anything, it's a distinct approach with its own merits. The No True OOP meme is old and tired, and frankly pointless.
  - cutler 4y ago
    Agreed. Smalltalk is Smalltalk and corporate OOP(Java/C#) is what it is. Neither is superior or more pure.
- eyelidlessness 4y ago
  It’s imperative programming with dots/infix sigils and either a little or a lot of ceremony.
- pie_flavor 4y ago
  Smalltalk came after Simula, which created the "poor imitation" you refer to. The reason you remember Kay instead of Simula is because Simula's ideas actually worked and so instantly got adopted by too many languages to care where it came from.
goatlover 4y ago
Also since Simula proceeded Smalltalk, and C++ is inspired by Simula, and Java by C++.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  I always take a point to address the "Java coding in C++", as what actually happened was Java adopting what was the C++ approach to library development before Oak turned into Java.
renox 4y ago
That's funny but for me Erlang is much more MOP than Smalltalk
- gmfawcett 4y ago
  Sure. Reading the qualifications that Kay makes at the end of his quote (above), he leaves room for Erlang to be MOP. I suspect that he just wasn't familiar with the language.

felideon 4y ago

Clarity is certainly important, in which case I could have said “OOP should have been...” Except: Smalltalk still lives (Squeak) and Erlang takes messaging to the extreme.

Twisol 4y ago
I've not used Erlang much, really, but it seems like a really nice fusion of messaging across agents and immutable state within agents. Elixir has long been on my list of languages to properly pick up...

deleted 4y ago

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samatman 4y ago

Rather, we should insist on calling object oriented programming what it is, and come up with an acronym for the poor imitations. How about Class-Reified Abstract Programming? If the shoe fits...

Existenceblinks 4y ago
In this era, DeepClass is a kool name.
- danielam 4y ago
  Too much mutation leads to deep state.
gmfawcett 4y ago
Modern OOP isn't a poor imitation of anything, it's a distinct approach with its own merits. The No True OOP meme is old and tired, and frankly pointless.
- cutler 4y ago
  Agreed. Smalltalk is Smalltalk and corporate OOP(Java/C#) is what it is. Neither is superior or more pure.
eyelidlessness 4y ago
It’s imperative programming with dots/infix sigils and either a little or a lot of ceremony.
pie_flavor 4y ago
Smalltalk came after Simula, which created the "poor imitation" you refer to. The reason you remember Kay instead of Simula is because Simula's ideas actually worked and so instantly got adopted by too many languages to care where it came from.

goatlover 4y ago

Also since Simula proceeded Smalltalk, and C++ is inspired by Simula, and Java by C++.

pjmlp 4y ago
I always take a point to address the "Java coding in C++", as what actually happened was Java adopting what was the C++ approach to library development before Oak turned into Java.

renox 4y ago

That's funny but for me Erlang is much more MOP than Smalltalk

gmfawcett 4y ago
Sure. Reading the qualifications that Kay makes at the end of his quote (above), he leaves room for Erlang to be MOP. I suspect that he just wasn't familiar with the language.