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My take-away is that any of the other 4 hierarchy levels between joel and bill should have challenged & asked those questions already. When you already have 6

My take-away is that any of the other 4 hierarchy levels between joel and bill should have challenged & asked those questions already. When you already have 6 levels of hierarchy, is it really the job of the CEO to dig that deep on technical issues?

nearbuy 4y ago
Spot checking for important projects is a good way of making sure those other 4 hierarchy levels are doing their job well.
fasteo 4y ago
>>> is it really the job of the CEO to dig that deep on technical issues? From the post: >>> Later I had it explained to me. “Bill doesn’t really want to review your spec, he just wants to make sure you’ve got it under control ...
justsomehnguy 4y ago
> other 4 hierarchy levels between joel and bill should have challenged & asked those questions already. Congratulations, you invented bureucracy. Because those 4 levels wouldn't (and most of the time - couldn't) answer those questions, so what they would do? Demand the lower level to answer it.
- bombcar 4y ago
  This results in Joel being told to review his own spec.
Tangurena2 4y ago
In far too many organizations, there is something called "the thermocline of truth". > A thermocline is a distinct temperature barrier between a surface layer of warmer water and the colder, deeper water underneath. It can exist in both lakes and oceans. A thermocline can prevent dissolved oxygen from getting to the lower layer and vital nutrients from getting to the upper layer. > In many large or even medium-sized IT projects, there exists a thermocline of truth, a line drawn across the organizational chart that represents a barrier to accurate information regarding the project’s progress. Those below this level tend to know how well the project is actually going; those above it tend to have a more optimistic (if unrealistic) view. In the more Machiavellian companies that I have worked for, this would be a layer on the org chart where truth stops flowing upwards. It may also affect downwards flow of information as well. The brass at the top don't know what is going on because they can't depend on the layers of management between the CxO tier and where work actually gets done. > is it really the job of the CEO to dig that deep on technical issues No. You - as CEO - should be able to trust the people in those layers. Maybe BillG didn't trust them. Or he didn't know how to. He was technically excellent enough to be able to do this sort of sanity check for himself. Perhaps, as CEO, you only need to do this sort of "quality control" check occasionally. Any organization that has been parasitized by narcissists is guaranteed to have at least one, and more likely several, layer(s) where truth must stop flowing in order to (1) protect the narcissists' egos and (2) to protect the organization from their anger & retaliation. [0] - https://brucefwebster.com/2008/04/15/the-wetware-crisis-the-themocline-of-truth/ https://brucefwebster.com/2008/04/15/the-wetware-crisis-the-...

nearbuy 4y ago

Spot checking for important projects is a good way of making sure those other 4 hierarchy levels are doing their job well.

fasteo 4y ago

>>> is it really the job of the CEO to dig that deep on technical issues? From the post: >>> Later I had it explained to me. “Bill doesn’t really want to review your spec, he just wants to make sure you’ve got it under control ...

justsomehnguy 4y ago

> other 4 hierarchy levels between joel and bill should have challenged & asked those questions already. Congratulations, you invented bureucracy. Because those 4 levels wouldn't (and most of the time - couldn't) answer those questions, so what they would do? Demand the lower level to answer it.

bombcar 4y ago
This results in Joel being told to review his own spec.

Tangurena2 4y ago

In far too many organizations, there is something called "the thermocline of truth". > A thermocline is a distinct temperature barrier between a surface layer of warmer water and the colder, deeper water underneath. It can exist in both lakes and oceans. A thermocline can prevent dissolved oxygen from getting to the lower layer and vital nutrients from getting to the upper layer. > In many large or even medium-sized IT projects, there exists a thermocline of truth, a line drawn across the organizational chart that represents a barrier to accurate information regarding the project’s progress. Those below this level tend to know how well the project is actually going; those above it tend to have a more optimistic (if unrealistic) view. In the more Machiavellian companies that I have worked for, this would be a layer on the org chart where truth stops flowing upwards. It may also affect downwards flow of information as well. The brass at the top don't know what is going on because they can't depend on the layers of management between the CxO tier and where work actually gets done. > is it really the job of the CEO to dig that deep on technical issues No. You - as CEO - should be able to trust the people in those layers. Maybe BillG didn't trust them. Or he didn't know how to. He was technically excellent enough to be able to do this sort of sanity check for himself. Perhaps, as CEO, you only need to do this sort of "quality control" check occasionally. Any organization that has been parasitized by narcissists is guaranteed to have at least one, and more likely several, layer(s) where truth must stop flowing in order to (1) protect the narcissists' egos and (2) to protect the organization from their anger & retaliation. [0] - https://brucefwebster.com/2008/04/15/the-wetware-crisis-the-themocline-of-truth/ https://brucefwebster.com/2008/04/15/the-wetware-crisis-the-...