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> This seems reasonable from first principles: we don’t sanction rubber band manufacturers for making the bands that hold laundered money together, bag manufact

> This seems reasonable from first principles: we don’t sanction rubber band manufacturers for making the bands that hold laundered money together, bag manufacturers for making bankers’ bags used by launderers, &c &c. This is where all the reasoning falls apart. We do sanction these things. We sanction types of paper commonly used for printing different countries currencies. We sanction types of metal alloys that are most useful in fissile material production. We literally sanction guns and bullets. Tornado Cash is a large chamber, fully automatic, machine gun. We should sanction it and remove it because what it is most usable for is mowing down large amounts of people, not helpfully killing a wolf that's about to eat an Albertan heifer. To us programmers language and code and free speech sure seem like all the same thing, but as you zoom out it stops being language and it starts being technology. I don't want gangsters and kleptocrats tornadoing cash. I want order and good government and societies built on peace, trust, and reliable justice.

tablespoon 4y ago
> To us programmers language and code and free speech sure seem like all the same thing, but as you zoom out it stops being language and it starts being technology. Excellent observation. You could claim a gun is just a metal sculpture and therefore protected by free speech, but that's not going to fly because it's an unreasonably expansive interpretation. There are a lot of pretty bizarre ideas tech people often have, because they're too focused on tech and too immersed in the tech subculture to see their blindspots. IMHO, it's pretty useful (especially as a tech person) to start with the assumption that any "techie" idea or attitude that intersects with any non-tech thing is majorly flawed (e.g. using "technical system" mental tools where they're inappropriate, a tendency towards oversimplification or over-consistency, engineer's syndrome and other kinds of ignorant arrogance, etc.).
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junofan 4y ago
> I want order and good government and societies built on peace, trust, and reliable justice. I mean everyone wants that. Why give a small group of people so much power to achieve it? Doesn’t the US government have enough power over people’s finances already to achieve those aims?
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- RandomLensman 4y ago
  Small committed minorities hold great power in democracies - maybe find enough likeminded folk to push for change?
WFHRenaissance 4y ago
>I want order and good government and societies built on peace, trust, and reliable justice. LOL I'd be curious to know which country you think this is possible in. The contemporary democratic nation state is a facade over a distributed and decentralized oligarchy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy#:~:text= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy#:~:text=....
- jimcavel888 4y ago
capableweb 4y ago
It seems a lot of people went from "cryptocurrency is not money and never will be" to "Tornado Cash helps facilitate money laundering" without realizing that using that argument, you're effectively acknowledging that cryptocurrency is money. Tornado Cash was always about Ethereum, not USD. You can't even use Tornado Cash to get in/out USD from the contract. Why not go after the actual entities that are doing the washing/laundering instead of one of the utilities they (and other lawful users) are using as a step in the process?
- hef19898 4y ago
  Crypto is an asset you can use to move money around, gold, checks, valuables, art all can be used for that. Crypto is just way more easier to move, it doesn't make it money. Real estate is used to launder money, that doesn't turn buildings into money.
  - capableweb 4y ago
    > Real estate is used to launder money, that doesn't turn buildings into money. Yet "real estate" is not on OFAC's sanctions list. It's almost like we should go after the people doing the money laundering, instead of things that could possibly be used for money laundering.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      If a certain real estate firm was found to facilitate money laundering, it will be sanctioned and people arrested. If said firm would help North Korea to circumvent sanctions, consequences would be severe. Tornado Cash and some people behind it were targeted, nobody made Crypto illegal.
      - capableweb 4y ago
        > Tornado Cash and some people behind it were targeted, nobody made Crypto illegal. That's incorrect. They literally made it illegal in the US to send/receive transactions to/from a Ethereum contract, which is just code. See https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/recent-actions/20220808 https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/... and search for 0x910cbd523d972eb0a6f4cae4618ad62622b39dbf (https://etherscan.io/address/0x910cbd523d972eb0a6f4cae4618ad62622b39dbf https://etherscan.io/address/0x910cbd523d972eb0a6f4cae4618ad...) as an example.
ipaddr 4y ago
Removing freedoms because someone might use theirs in a way society doesn't accept is a bad tradeoff for sense of peace. Gangsters use cars and it allows them to flee police.. removing cars would provide more peace and justice.
- galuggus 4y ago
  Cars are regulated by license plates. Do you feel removing license plates from cars would be a good idea? It would certainly be a boon for privacy but at what cost?
- polygamous_bat 4y ago
  Replace "cars" by "machine guns" in your comment. Does your stance still remain the same? The sanction was on tornado cash specifically and not on Ethereum or cryptocurrencies as a whole. The latter would be similar to banning cars IMO.
  - hailwren 4y ago
    This is the unfortunate nature of _all_ privacy preserving technologies. Signal, whole disk encryption, the password to a user's iphone backup -- these are _all_ more beneficial to criminals than to the layperson. It so happens that, until very recently, our government keepers have enjoyed unfettered access to data about our lives on a scale that is unprecedented. We will continue to see this same battle "privacy is only to the benefit of criminals" play out over and over in every medium. For me, I prefer privacy and for government investigators to be forced to do their job. This has the unfortunate (for Americans) side effect of unraveling much of the American financial hegemony.
    - thraxil 4y ago
      > Signal, whole disk encryption, the password to a user's iphone backup -- these are _all_ more beneficial to criminals than to the layperson. That's an extraordinary claim. Do you have any data or arguments to back that up? Millions (billions?) of people use those technologies every day for non-criminal purposes. Are there really more criminals out there using them for nefarious purposes?

tablespoon 4y ago

> To us programmers language and code and free speech sure seem like all the same thing, but as you zoom out it stops being language and it starts being technology. Excellent observation. You could claim a gun is just a metal sculpture and therefore protected by free speech, but that's not going to fly because it's an unreasonably expansive interpretation. There are a lot of pretty bizarre ideas tech people often have, because they're too focused on tech and too immersed in the tech subculture to see their blindspots. IMHO, it's pretty useful (especially as a tech person) to start with the assumption that any "techie" idea or attitude that intersects with any non-tech thing is majorly flawed (e.g. using "technical system" mental tools where they're inappropriate, a tendency towards oversimplification or over-consistency, engineer's syndrome and other kinds of ignorant arrogance, etc.).

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junofan 4y ago

> I want order and good government and societies built on peace, trust, and reliable justice. I mean everyone wants that. Why give a small group of people so much power to achieve it? Doesn’t the US government have enough power over people’s finances already to achieve those aims?

deleted 4y ago
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RandomLensman 4y ago
Small committed minorities hold great power in democracies - maybe find enough likeminded folk to push for change?

WFHRenaissance 4y ago

>I want order and good government and societies built on peace, trust, and reliable justice. LOL I'd be curious to know which country you think this is possible in. The contemporary democratic nation state is a facade over a distributed and decentralized oligarchy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy#:~:text= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy#:~:text=....

jimcavel888 4y ago

capableweb 4y ago

It seems a lot of people went from "cryptocurrency is not money and never will be" to "Tornado Cash helps facilitate money laundering" without realizing that using that argument, you're effectively acknowledging that cryptocurrency is money. Tornado Cash was always about Ethereum, not USD. You can't even use Tornado Cash to get in/out USD from the contract. Why not go after the actual entities that are doing the washing/laundering instead of one of the utilities they (and other lawful users) are using as a step in the process?

hef19898 4y ago
Crypto is an asset you can use to move money around, gold, checks, valuables, art all can be used for that. Crypto is just way more easier to move, it doesn't make it money. Real estate is used to launder money, that doesn't turn buildings into money.
- capableweb 4y ago
  > Real estate is used to launder money, that doesn't turn buildings into money. Yet "real estate" is not on OFAC's sanctions list. It's almost like we should go after the people doing the money laundering, instead of things that could possibly be used for money laundering.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    If a certain real estate firm was found to facilitate money laundering, it will be sanctioned and people arrested. If said firm would help North Korea to circumvent sanctions, consequences would be severe. Tornado Cash and some people behind it were targeted, nobody made Crypto illegal.
    - capableweb 4y ago
      > Tornado Cash and some people behind it were targeted, nobody made Crypto illegal. That's incorrect. They literally made it illegal in the US to send/receive transactions to/from a Ethereum contract, which is just code. See https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/recent-actions/20220808 https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/... and search for 0x910cbd523d972eb0a6f4cae4618ad62622b39dbf (https://etherscan.io/address/0x910cbd523d972eb0a6f4cae4618ad62622b39dbf https://etherscan.io/address/0x910cbd523d972eb0a6f4cae4618ad...) as an example.

ipaddr 4y ago

Removing freedoms because someone might use theirs in a way society doesn't accept is a bad tradeoff for sense of peace. Gangsters use cars and it allows them to flee police.. removing cars would provide more peace and justice.

galuggus 4y ago
Cars are regulated by license plates. Do you feel removing license plates from cars would be a good idea? It would certainly be a boon for privacy but at what cost?
polygamous_bat 4y ago
Replace "cars" by "machine guns" in your comment. Does your stance still remain the same? The sanction was on tornado cash specifically and not on Ethereum or cryptocurrencies as a whole. The latter would be similar to banning cars IMO.
- hailwren 4y ago
  This is the unfortunate nature of _all_ privacy preserving technologies. Signal, whole disk encryption, the password to a user's iphone backup -- these are _all_ more beneficial to criminals than to the layperson. It so happens that, until very recently, our government keepers have enjoyed unfettered access to data about our lives on a scale that is unprecedented. We will continue to see this same battle "privacy is only to the benefit of criminals" play out over and over in every medium. For me, I prefer privacy and for government investigators to be forced to do their job. This has the unfortunate (for Americans) side effect of unraveling much of the American financial hegemony.
  - thraxil 4y ago
    > Signal, whole disk encryption, the password to a user's iphone backup -- these are _all_ more beneficial to criminals than to the layperson. That's an extraordinary claim. Do you have any data or arguments to back that up? Millions (billions?) of people use those technologies every day for non-criminal purposes. Are there really more criminals out there using them for nefarious purposes?