9 ms·

I work with prosecutors, and some of them will straight up misrepresent innocent facts to paint them as evidence of malicious intent and pressure parties to ple

I work with prosecutors, and some of them will straight up misrepresent innocent facts to paint them as evidence of malicious intent and pressure parties to plead guilty. I have seen stuff like "defendant had TOR installed - a popular program for criminals" in court filings. ...and judges and juries accept that as fact because they just don't understand the technology. For example, having a bookmark for "Hacker News" would absolutely show up in court. Crazy stuff meant to bias judges and juries that don't know tech. The point is that the situation is 100x worse in tech where prosecutors, judges, and juries simply do not understand the evidence. ANYTHING can be painted as incriminating evidence. I have seen saved credentials on automation jobs being used to incorrectly establish people's network activity. I have seen routine maintenance being used to establish obstruction charges just to intimidate possible witnesses... Like stuff you would not believe happens, happens. It's even worse in civil suits, where opposing counsel will subpoena as much as possible (mountains of data) just to give you more work and fish for trade secrets or anything they can twist in court. When I was junior, I proudly told my legal team "good news, I added space to keep our transaction records for 20 years!" and was aghast when they said they wanted files deleted THE DAY the legal requirement to hold it expired because it increased legal liability. Now I totally get it. Today we only store the bare minimum - everything else is deleted immediately. ... and I have to re-explain this to junior employees each year to their disgust.

Buttons840 4y ago
> having a bookmark for "Hacker News" would absolutely show up in court And would the defense be allowed to show the legal and harmless conversations we have here? Or ask the prosecutors which HN posts they believe influenced the accused to commit a crime?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Zuider 4y ago
Your Honor, we were horrified to discover the largest collection of "PDF files" we have ever seen on the defendant's hard drive!
drewcoo 4y ago
> Today we only store the bare minimum - everything else is deleted immediately. ... and I have to re-explain this to junior employees each year to their disgust. Same in software-land. Nobody wants to have years of who-knows-what subpoenaed.
titzer 4y ago
Bigtech will happily store data on their users indefinitely so they can mine it in the future, should they think of new profit-generating ideas. But they will absolutely delete their employee's emails after N months unless they are on litigation hold (i.e. legally required not to do so). Complete double standard.
- edgyquant 4y ago
  The data is their business model so I don’t see how it’s a double standard
knodi123 4y ago
> I have seen routine maintenance being used to establish obstruction charges just to intimidate possible witnesses You're talking about Hillary Clinton, right? That's literally one of the arguments they used against her.
- Wistar 4y ago
  Same thing occurred to me. The Bleach Bit BS.
- phpthrowaway99 4y ago
  Was it really routine maintenance to BleachBit an entire server after you receive a subpoena from the FBI?
  - knodi123 4y ago
    Yes, it really was. The FBI investigated and found as much. https://www.denverpost.com/2016/09/03/fbi-report-platte-river-network-employee-bleachbit-delete-clinton-e-mails/ https://www.denverpost.com/2016/09/03/fbi-report-platte-rive...
    - phpthrowaway99 4y ago
      I don't see this really addressing the fact that deleting data permanently after you find out the FBI wants to look at those devices is a bit weird.
      - knodi123 4y ago
        A plausible justification was given. It makes sense. It also has nothing to do with Hillary's decision-making. You can call all the people involved liars, or just deny the facts that have been presented to you - but the facts, as presented, do portray innocent behavior.
    - bdowling 4y ago
      > In July, FBI Director James B. Comey said while the investigation revealed potential violations, “our judgement is that no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case.” In other words, crimes were probably committed but the FBI dropped the investigation because they figured that no prosecutor would file charges in the case.
bdw5204 4y ago
> I have seen stuff like "defendant had TOR installed - a popular program for criminals" in court filings. ...and judges and juries accept that as fact because they just don't understand the technology. For example, having a bookmark for "Hacker News" would absolutely show up in court. Both of those are really good examples of how a statement of fact that is literally true can still be a lie. Politicians do this kind of stuff all the time especially in their attack ads that make TV unwatchable around this time of year in every even numbered year. Amazingly what gets a politician called out by the other party's press as a "liar" is the opposite of this kind of statement: something that is fundamentally true but where the politician got one minor irrelevant detail wrong. That's also a major reason why it isn't a good idea to represent yourself in court or to explain yourself to the police when you get arrested because people are prone to accidentally getting minor details wrong or misspeaking even when they're telling the truth to the best of their ability.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
  > ... prone to accidentally getting minor details wrong I know a prosecutor who had to investigate the statements made by the husband of a person who (presumably) had drowned themself in their pool (she used workout weights to keep herself at the bottom). The statement to be investigated: "Those were her weights. I never touched those weights!" Now all of a sudden maybe his fingerprints are on the weights and that statement is untrue... I also got to learn that they scoop the weights into a bucket because I guess they need to keep them submerged in water, otherwise the prints will wash off.
  - mc32 4y ago
    Ah, too bad he could not use the Slick Willie defense and make the claim that it depends on what the definition of "touch" is.
- worik 4y ago
  > explain yourself to the police when you get arrested Cannot emphasise this enough. Unless you live a criminal lifestyle (if so, you can learn nothing from me) you may encounter cops once. They do it every day. Often police job advancement is helped by making your life hell. Say nothing you are not legally obliged to.
hipjiveguy 4y ago
wisdom and experience. TIL
nephrite 4y ago
> having a bookmark for "Hacker News" I was punished in school for having NetHack source code in my home dir. And it was not because it was a game but because it allegedly was a hacking tool.
- westmeal 4y ago
  At least they didn't sanction you for eating corpses...
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  In highschool I was sent to detention and almost suspended because a study hall teacher overheard me talking about the "black market" feature of an roleplaying game I was writing on my graphing calculator. It took an hour of trying to explain TI-BASIC to my principle (and I think some angry phonecalls from my mother, a teacher in that district) before they relented with the insane mafioso accusations.
  - wen_1k_btc 4y ago
    the principal's your pal
    - mc32 4y ago
      I'd like to request a change to that mnemonic: your principal is not your pal!
  - andrepd 4y ago
    At least you didn't have Dopewars installed!
  - codethief 4y ago
    This reminds me of an article (re-)posted recently here on HN: https://web.archive.org/web/20031114161830/http://www.adequacy.org/public/stories/2001.12.2.42056.2147.html https://web.archive.org/web/20031114161830/http://www.adequa...
- 4y ago

Buttons840 4y ago

> having a bookmark for "Hacker News" would absolutely show up in court And would the defense be allowed to show the legal and harmless conversations we have here? Or ask the prosecutors which HN posts they believe influenced the accused to commit a crime?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Zuider 4y ago

Your Honor, we were horrified to discover the largest collection of "PDF files" we have ever seen on the defendant's hard drive!

drewcoo 4y ago

> Today we only store the bare minimum - everything else is deleted immediately. ... and I have to re-explain this to junior employees each year to their disgust. Same in software-land. Nobody wants to have years of who-knows-what subpoenaed.

titzer 4y ago

Bigtech will happily store data on their users indefinitely so they can mine it in the future, should they think of new profit-generating ideas. But they will absolutely delete their employee's emails after N months unless they are on litigation hold (i.e. legally required not to do so). Complete double standard.

edgyquant 4y ago
The data is their business model so I don’t see how it’s a double standard

knodi123 4y ago

> I have seen routine maintenance being used to establish obstruction charges just to intimidate possible witnesses You're talking about Hillary Clinton, right? That's literally one of the arguments they used against her.

Wistar 4y ago
Same thing occurred to me. The Bleach Bit BS.
phpthrowaway99 4y ago
Was it really routine maintenance to BleachBit an entire server after you receive a subpoena from the FBI?
- knodi123 4y ago
  Yes, it really was. The FBI investigated and found as much. https://www.denverpost.com/2016/09/03/fbi-report-platte-river-network-employee-bleachbit-delete-clinton-e-mails/ https://www.denverpost.com/2016/09/03/fbi-report-platte-rive...
  - phpthrowaway99 4y ago
    I don't see this really addressing the fact that deleting data permanently after you find out the FBI wants to look at those devices is a bit weird.
    - knodi123 4y ago
      A plausible justification was given. It makes sense. It also has nothing to do with Hillary's decision-making. You can call all the people involved liars, or just deny the facts that have been presented to you - but the facts, as presented, do portray innocent behavior.
  - bdowling 4y ago
    > In July, FBI Director James B. Comey said while the investigation revealed potential violations, “our judgement is that no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case.” In other words, crimes were probably committed but the FBI dropped the investigation because they figured that no prosecutor would file charges in the case.

bdw5204 4y ago

> I have seen stuff like "defendant had TOR installed - a popular program for criminals" in court filings. ...and judges and juries accept that as fact because they just don't understand the technology. For example, having a bookmark for "Hacker News" would absolutely show up in court. Both of those are really good examples of how a statement of fact that is literally true can still be a lie. Politicians do this kind of stuff all the time especially in their attack ads that make TV unwatchable around this time of year in every even numbered year. Amazingly what gets a politician called out by the other party's press as a "liar" is the opposite of this kind of statement: something that is fundamentally true but where the politician got one minor irrelevant detail wrong. That's also a major reason why it isn't a good idea to represent yourself in court or to explain yourself to the police when you get arrested because people are prone to accidentally getting minor details wrong or misspeaking even when they're telling the truth to the best of their ability.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
> ... prone to accidentally getting minor details wrong I know a prosecutor who had to investigate the statements made by the husband of a person who (presumably) had drowned themself in their pool (she used workout weights to keep herself at the bottom). The statement to be investigated: "Those were her weights. I never touched those weights!" Now all of a sudden maybe his fingerprints are on the weights and that statement is untrue... I also got to learn that they scoop the weights into a bucket because I guess they need to keep them submerged in water, otherwise the prints will wash off.
- mc32 4y ago
  Ah, too bad he could not use the Slick Willie defense and make the claim that it depends on what the definition of "touch" is.
worik 4y ago
> explain yourself to the police when you get arrested Cannot emphasise this enough. Unless you live a criminal lifestyle (if so, you can learn nothing from me) you may encounter cops once. They do it every day. Often police job advancement is helped by making your life hell. Say nothing you are not legally obliged to.

hipjiveguy 4y ago

wisdom and experience. TIL

nephrite 4y ago

> having a bookmark for "Hacker News" I was punished in school for having NetHack source code in my home dir. And it was not because it was a game but because it allegedly was a hacking tool.

westmeal 4y ago
At least they didn't sanction you for eating corpses...
MichaelCollins 4y ago
In highschool I was sent to detention and almost suspended because a study hall teacher overheard me talking about the "black market" feature of an roleplaying game I was writing on my graphing calculator. It took an hour of trying to explain TI-BASIC to my principle (and I think some angry phonecalls from my mother, a teacher in that district) before they relented with the insane mafioso accusations.
- wen_1k_btc 4y ago
  the principal's your pal
  - mc32 4y ago
    I'd like to request a change to that mnemonic: your principal is not your pal!
- andrepd 4y ago
  At least you didn't have Dopewars installed!
- codethief 4y ago
  This reminds me of an article (re-)posted recently here on HN: https://web.archive.org/web/20031114161830/http://www.adequacy.org/public/stories/2001.12.2.42056.2147.html https://web.archive.org/web/20031114161830/http://www.adequa...
4y ago