4 ms·

Canonical example here are the records (that included religion) kept by the Dutch that enabled the nazis to easily round up all the jews in The Netherlands duri

by sjaak 4y ago

Canonical example here are the records (that included religion) kept by the Dutch that enabled the nazis to easily round up all the jews in The Netherlands during WWII

hinkley 4y ago
McCarthyism was how this played out in the states. Not as brutal and bloody, but lives were still ruined. In theory it’s unconstitutional here to prosecute someone for an act they committed before there was a law against it. But there are other ways to convict someone, for better or worse. Corporations leverage this all the time, so they go unpunished unless it’s in the court of public opinion. The toolset is necessary but the power dynamics are important.
- dredmorbius 4y ago
  I'd include the Jim Crow / opposition to civil rights movements. Which were bloody and brutal. Today is the 59th anniversary of the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing, in which four girls aged 11--14 were killed, and another 14--22 injured. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_Street_Baptist_Church_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_Street_Baptist_Church_bom...>
  - SeqDesign 4y ago
    excuse me, could you clarify if your statement about marks and blocks here (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12118609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12118609) was about WordStar or Emacs? thank you PS I'm sorry for digressing; there was no reply button on that post.
    - dredmorbius 4y ago
      Neither. vi / vim. See: <https://vim.fandom.com/wiki/Using_marks https://vim.fandom.com/wiki/Using_marks> <https://www.marksanborn.net/software/using-markers-in-vim/ https://www.marksanborn.net/software/using-markers-in-vim/> (Six year old comment comes back to haunt me ... Could've been worse ;-)
      - SeqDesign 4y ago
        nice, thank you
pessimizer 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust And French Jewry was spared to a large extent not because of the compassion of Vichy administration, who even sent French children to the death camps over German objections, but due to a complicated bureaucracy and disorganized recordkeeping that made it a real challenge for French collaborators to round Jewish people up. They'd have no such roadblock these days.
- shabbatt 4y ago
  Came here to point IBM out which is a sign of how it was: Many Americans supported Nazi. There is this rose tinted glass view that Americans rose up to defeat Nazism taught in textbooks and mainstream media but was far from the truth. Not only did Nazism was cool then, American corporations like IBM directly aided Nazi party with surveillance efforts, very much like they have funded the persecution of uyghurs by purchasing American software and hardware. What is constant is that the US looks out for its interest first and foremost, even if it means doing business with authoritarian or tyrannical regimes. Is it moral from a humane perspective? No. But is the state subject to humane? are corporations? The accepted view is that they have no consciousness and is not bound by the same moral/ethical afflictions unless they are shamed out of it that it impacts their bottom line.
  - fritztastic 4y ago
    Most people were unaware/indifferent, and a nonnegligible number thought it was cool/alright, and tens of thousands openly showed up for it, untold numbers directly/indirectly supported it- undoubtedly some never stopped. https://anightatthegarden.com/ https://anightatthegarden.com/
  - daniel-cussen 4y ago
    [flagged]
- iisan7 4y ago
  There's an interesting discussion in the book The Sum of the People which argues that the disorganized recordkeeping in France was a ruse and a deliberate attempt by Rene Carmille to embrace the concept of population registry but to undermine the Nazi policy (Chapter 4, "Paper People"). In particular, Carmille apparently didn't enter the religion data from the census on the punchcards and never delivered lists. Carmille was arrested by the SS in 1944. It's not an entirely happy story though because there were absolutely others in France who collaborated to produce as many lists as they could, especially of Jewish immigrants who were easier to find in the records.

by sjaak 4y ago

Canonical example here are the records (that included religion) kept by the Dutch that enabled the nazis to easily round up all the jews in The Netherlands during WWII

hinkley 4y ago

McCarthyism was how this played out in the states. Not as brutal and bloody, but lives were still ruined. In theory it’s unconstitutional here to prosecute someone for an act they committed before there was a law against it. But there are other ways to convict someone, for better or worse. Corporations leverage this all the time, so they go unpunished unless it’s in the court of public opinion. The toolset is necessary but the power dynamics are important.

dredmorbius 4y ago
I'd include the Jim Crow / opposition to civil rights movements. Which were bloody and brutal. Today is the 59th anniversary of the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing, in which four girls aged 11--14 were killed, and another 14--22 injured. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_Street_Baptist_Church_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_Street_Baptist_Church_bom...>
- SeqDesign 4y ago
  excuse me, could you clarify if your statement about marks and blocks here (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12118609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12118609) was about WordStar or Emacs? thank you PS I'm sorry for digressing; there was no reply button on that post.
  - dredmorbius 4y ago
    Neither. vi / vim. See: <https://vim.fandom.com/wiki/Using_marks https://vim.fandom.com/wiki/Using_marks> <https://www.marksanborn.net/software/using-markers-in-vim/ https://www.marksanborn.net/software/using-markers-in-vim/> (Six year old comment comes back to haunt me ... Could've been worse ;-)
    - SeqDesign 4y ago
      nice, thank you

pessimizer 4y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust And French Jewry was spared to a large extent not because of the compassion of Vichy administration, who even sent French children to the death camps over German objections, but due to a complicated bureaucracy and disorganized recordkeeping that made it a real challenge for French collaborators to round Jewish people up. They'd have no such roadblock these days.

shabbatt 4y ago
Came here to point IBM out which is a sign of how it was: Many Americans supported Nazi. There is this rose tinted glass view that Americans rose up to defeat Nazism taught in textbooks and mainstream media but was far from the truth. Not only did Nazism was cool then, American corporations like IBM directly aided Nazi party with surveillance efforts, very much like they have funded the persecution of uyghurs by purchasing American software and hardware. What is constant is that the US looks out for its interest first and foremost, even if it means doing business with authoritarian or tyrannical regimes. Is it moral from a humane perspective? No. But is the state subject to humane? are corporations? The accepted view is that they have no consciousness and is not bound by the same moral/ethical afflictions unless they are shamed out of it that it impacts their bottom line.
- fritztastic 4y ago
  Most people were unaware/indifferent, and a nonnegligible number thought it was cool/alright, and tens of thousands openly showed up for it, untold numbers directly/indirectly supported it- undoubtedly some never stopped. https://anightatthegarden.com/ https://anightatthegarden.com/
- daniel-cussen 4y ago
  [flagged]
iisan7 4y ago
There's an interesting discussion in the book The Sum of the People which argues that the disorganized recordkeeping in France was a ruse and a deliberate attempt by Rene Carmille to embrace the concept of population registry but to undermine the Nazi policy (Chapter 4, "Paper People"). In particular, Carmille apparently didn't enter the religion data from the census on the punchcards and never delivered lists. Carmille was arrested by the SS in 1944. It's not an entirely happy story though because there were absolutely others in France who collaborated to produce as many lists as they could, especially of Jewish immigrants who were easier to find in the records.