4 ms·

This is insane. You realize that all the quotes are from a post called the author describes as a 'cautionary tale'? (http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/nscpdorm.html h

by neilk 15y ago

This is insane. You realize that all the quotes are from a post called the author describes as a 'cautionary tale'? (http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/nscpdorm.html http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/nscpdorm.html) I think jwz sums it up best in another post, where he talks about the best case scenario: becoming rich from your startup: I've known dozens of instant-millionaires so far (from Netscape as well as other companies), and basically, I don't speak to any of them any more, because the money changed them and turned them into fairly creepy people. People who spend $10k on a wristwatch and then brag about it (while trying to aloofly sound like they're not bragging about it.) People whose sense of self-worth has gone nonlinear, because when they look at their brokerage statement, they forget that, while skill was certainly a component of why they got to where they did, luck was also a huge component. Most of these people have never worked for a company that built a good product and failed anyway. They don't have any understanding of the fact that skill is often necessary, but always insufficient. They believe their hype. -- http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/corleone.html http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/corleone.html

ChuckMcM 15y ago
I don't think people appreciate the money aspect enough. It does change people and not always along a vector you would expect. It also changes people who don't get rich. Your a low number employee and your company goes public, woohoo you are rich, but people who work with you and came later and are doing the same job as you are not. The cognitive dissonance is huge, people sometimes feel guilty that they are rich and their co-workers aren't, sometimes they feel like they 'must be smarter' because they are rich and their co-workers aren't. Newly rich people want to marvel in it, and share how amazing it is that they can spend 10K on a watch if they feel like it, and the people around them, doing the same work and not rich, well they often aren't all that appreciative of what it must be like. Those relationships get awkward quickly. And people separate so that they can be with other people where their lifestyle (or lack of it) won't be a source of awkwardness. Not a lot of people talk about the side effects of 'success' but they should think about it.
- neilk 15y ago
  My point in quoting that wasn't that success is necessarily bad for you (Alex Ohanian seems to be doing okay, and jwz is himself a counterexample) it's that success in that sort of business has a large random component. The point of the OP's post is that huge sacrifices are necessary for great rewards. I think the truth is more like, your huge sacrifices are necessary so that our investment strategy works. Meanwhile, guys like patio11 and the 37 Signals team have shown there's plenty of different paths to success. And if you think about what people like Jimmy Wales or Tim Berners-Lee have done, there's lots of ways to "make a dent in the universe" without even forming a traditional company. I know this is crazy talk, but not all roads to greatness involve making a VC rich. But you know, now that I think about it, I think people are going to read what I just posted and only zero in on the "dozens of instant millionaires" sentence and ask how can I get in on that?
  - kamaal 15y ago
    The definition of success itself varies among most of the people. Some people wish to make a dent in the universe, some people just want money. Some people want both. Some people just want to be famous and remembered. Some people want to be something important part of an ecosystem who get to decide a lot of things. Some people just like Power and social status. Some people are in just for the fun of the game. Some people just want to be happy. List can be really long. Basically its what you truly want. Depending on that there are different things you need to be successful. There is no silver bullet.
- caseysoftware 15y ago
  "Your a low number employee and your company goes public, woohoo you are rich, but people who work with you and came later and are doing the same job as you are not." You're leaving out risk and experience: * Employee #3 takes more risk than employee #30 who took more risk than employee #300. * More importantly, even if they have the same roles when employee #30 joined, odds are that employee #3 was involved in quite a few other things in quite a few other roles and has had a fundamentally different impact on the team and organization as a whole. Disclosure: I'm with a startup popular around here.. but my number is well into the double digits. ;)
tmurray 15y ago
Yeah, this article left me speechless. Why would you use jwz to justify startup culture? jwz left the tech industry completely in 2000 and bought DNA Lounge.
- snowwrestler 15y ago
  I think the point is that he could not have afforded to buy a lounge if he hadn't first worked hard enough to succeed in a startup.
  - nknight 15y ago
    People have been starting businesses with limited personal wealth since time immemorial. He may or may not have had the flexibility to do exactly what he did, but mortgages and business loans for things that aren't utterly ridiculous are not difficult to come by in good economic conditions (which is what he had at the time).
harryh 15y ago
It's not that cautionary. If you went to jwz right now and asked him "If you went back in time and, knowing everything you know now about how much pain would be involved, would you sign up with Netscape again?" I bet you he'd say yes. "But who said everything has to be fun? Pain builds character. (Sometimes it builds products, too.)"
- kamaal 15y ago
  >>"But who said everything has to be fun? Pain builds character. (Sometimes it builds products, too.)" Exactly. In fact all fun thing is said to make your position look a little good. Its not good if you depict the path to success as a painful journey. To make your story glorious you need to look like a hero and for that you need depict accomplishments in the most glorious way and make them seem effortless(fun). Imagine a situation, if you are giving an advice to a young man. You will rather tell him to work on things he likes to work(fun) than on the ones he doesn't like. Although this is the advice in theory you would like to give. Deep within yourself you know very well, doing something big will require you to do stuff you don't like to do. Undergo, pain and sacrifice which you wouldn't like to endure normally. Also 'struggle' is one the reasons most normal people are OK with their normal lives. I think most people just lack the required level of motivation and desire to overcome the pain to undergo the 'struggle' in the path to success. Most people just drop the plan to work hard calling it 'not worth it'. People like to believe in a easy way out. They like to believe luck exists. Because that will give them an unfair advantage over others. That is, they can get rich even without working. Hardwork is so inglorious, it make success look obvious. And moreover when you look at the big picture. It looks karma.
  - hugoestr 15y ago
    It is not enough. Luck has a lot to do with it. It is so upsetting to believe the role that luck has we come up with these fairy tales that if you just work yourself into an early health problems you will be rewarded with riches. But let's remember the basics, you can work this hard, yet most start up fail.
- diego 15y ago
  I asked him, here's his response. http://twitter.com/#!/jwz/status/141017942639902720 http://twitter.com/#!/jwz/status/141017942639902720
csmt 15y ago
There are three possible outcomes for startups: (1) failure; (2) marginally successful; and (3) enormously successful. In case of (1) and (2) employees hardly make any money, and early employees may make money in case (3). More than 99% startups' outcome is either (1) or (2). I feel startup world is highly skewed in favor of investors and founders. I have worked at a startup and now I would think twice before working for another startup, since rewards don't add up to effort and time because of odds.
- itmag 15y ago
  That's kind of similar to the zero-one-infinity rule: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/Z/Zero-One-Infinity-Rule.html http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/Z/Zero-One-Infinity-Rule.htm... Another application of the rule to startups: http://blog.opportunitycloud.com/2011/06/16/zero-one-infinity-three-numbers-your-startup-should-care-about/ http://blog.opportunitycloud.com/2011/06/16/zero-one-infinit...

by neilk 15y ago

ChuckMcM 15y ago

I don't think people appreciate the money aspect enough. It does change people and not always along a vector you would expect. It also changes people who don't get rich. Your a low number employee and your company goes public, woohoo you are rich, but people who work with you and came later and are doing the same job as you are not. The cognitive dissonance is huge, people sometimes feel guilty that they are rich and their co-workers aren't, sometimes they feel like they 'must be smarter' because they are rich and their co-workers aren't. Newly rich people want to marvel in it, and share how amazing it is that they can spend 10K on a watch if they feel like it, and the people around them, doing the same work and not rich, well they often aren't all that appreciative of what it must be like. Those relationships get awkward quickly. And people separate so that they can be with other people where their lifestyle (or lack of it) won't be a source of awkwardness. Not a lot of people talk about the side effects of 'success' but they should think about it.

neilk 15y ago
My point in quoting that wasn't that success is necessarily bad for you (Alex Ohanian seems to be doing okay, and jwz is himself a counterexample) it's that success in that sort of business has a large random component. The point of the OP's post is that huge sacrifices are necessary for great rewards. I think the truth is more like, your huge sacrifices are necessary so that our investment strategy works. Meanwhile, guys like patio11 and the 37 Signals team have shown there's plenty of different paths to success. And if you think about what people like Jimmy Wales or Tim Berners-Lee have done, there's lots of ways to "make a dent in the universe" without even forming a traditional company. I know this is crazy talk, but not all roads to greatness involve making a VC rich. But you know, now that I think about it, I think people are going to read what I just posted and only zero in on the "dozens of instant millionaires" sentence and ask how can I get in on that?
- kamaal 15y ago
  The definition of success itself varies among most of the people. Some people wish to make a dent in the universe, some people just want money. Some people want both. Some people just want to be famous and remembered. Some people want to be something important part of an ecosystem who get to decide a lot of things. Some people just like Power and social status. Some people are in just for the fun of the game. Some people just want to be happy. List can be really long. Basically its what you truly want. Depending on that there are different things you need to be successful. There is no silver bullet.
caseysoftware 15y ago
"Your a low number employee and your company goes public, woohoo you are rich, but people who work with you and came later and are doing the same job as you are not." You're leaving out risk and experience: * Employee #3 takes more risk than employee #30 who took more risk than employee #300. * More importantly, even if they have the same roles when employee #30 joined, odds are that employee #3 was involved in quite a few other things in quite a few other roles and has had a fundamentally different impact on the team and organization as a whole. Disclosure: I'm with a startup popular around here.. but my number is well into the double digits. ;)

tmurray 15y ago

Yeah, this article left me speechless. Why would you use jwz to justify startup culture? jwz left the tech industry completely in 2000 and bought DNA Lounge.

snowwrestler 15y ago
I think the point is that he could not have afforded to buy a lounge if he hadn't first worked hard enough to succeed in a startup.
- nknight 15y ago
  People have been starting businesses with limited personal wealth since time immemorial. He may or may not have had the flexibility to do exactly what he did, but mortgages and business loans for things that aren't utterly ridiculous are not difficult to come by in good economic conditions (which is what he had at the time).

harryh 15y ago

It's not that cautionary. If you went to jwz right now and asked him "If you went back in time and, knowing everything you know now about how much pain would be involved, would you sign up with Netscape again?" I bet you he'd say yes. "But who said everything has to be fun? Pain builds character. (Sometimes it builds products, too.)"

kamaal 15y ago
>>"But who said everything has to be fun? Pain builds character. (Sometimes it builds products, too.)" Exactly. In fact all fun thing is said to make your position look a little good. Its not good if you depict the path to success as a painful journey. To make your story glorious you need to look like a hero and for that you need depict accomplishments in the most glorious way and make them seem effortless(fun). Imagine a situation, if you are giving an advice to a young man. You will rather tell him to work on things he likes to work(fun) than on the ones he doesn't like. Although this is the advice in theory you would like to give. Deep within yourself you know very well, doing something big will require you to do stuff you don't like to do. Undergo, pain and sacrifice which you wouldn't like to endure normally. Also 'struggle' is one the reasons most normal people are OK with their normal lives. I think most people just lack the required level of motivation and desire to overcome the pain to undergo the 'struggle' in the path to success. Most people just drop the plan to work hard calling it 'not worth it'. People like to believe in a easy way out. They like to believe luck exists. Because that will give them an unfair advantage over others. That is, they can get rich even without working. Hardwork is so inglorious, it make success look obvious. And moreover when you look at the big picture. It looks karma.
- hugoestr 15y ago
  It is not enough. Luck has a lot to do with it. It is so upsetting to believe the role that luck has we come up with these fairy tales that if you just work yourself into an early health problems you will be rewarded with riches. But let's remember the basics, you can work this hard, yet most start up fail.
diego 15y ago
I asked him, here's his response. http://twitter.com/#!/jwz/status/141017942639902720 http://twitter.com/#!/jwz/status/141017942639902720

csmt 15y ago

There are three possible outcomes for startups: (1) failure; (2) marginally successful; and (3) enormously successful. In case of (1) and (2) employees hardly make any money, and early employees may make money in case (3). More than 99% startups' outcome is either (1) or (2). I feel startup world is highly skewed in favor of investors and founders. I have worked at a startup and now I would think twice before working for another startup, since rewards don't add up to effort and time because of odds.

itmag 15y ago
That's kind of similar to the zero-one-infinity rule: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/Z/Zero-One-Infinity-Rule.html http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/Z/Zero-One-Infinity-Rule.htm... Another application of the rule to startups: http://blog.opportunitycloud.com/2011/06/16/zero-one-infinity-three-numbers-your-startup-should-care-about/ http://blog.opportunitycloud.com/2011/06/16/zero-one-infinit...