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There’s a lot about riding a motorbike that feels counterintuitive. The way this article is written it sounds like you can only initiate the steer with a counte
by CraigJPerry 4y ago
There’s a lot about riding a motorbike that feels counterintuitive. The way this article is written it sounds like you can only initiate the steer with a counter steer but even if you’re already in a bend you can provide a counter input to tighten your line and steer harder. It’s taught pretty early on for new riders and it saves lives.
There’s loads of other weird things, because the rear tire is wider than the front, the contact patch is bigger at the rear, so to extract maximum grip you need a rearward weight transfer, so lightly accelerating in a turn is optimal. Even when not pursuing max grip you’d still do this to keep the envelope large around your actual grip requirements.
Although The front wheel has a smaller contact patch, the contact patch at the front is often a different shape- the front wheel is often a larger diameter so it has a longer but narrower contact patch than the rear. That makes for a vehicle that tracks and responds differently over uneven ground at the front vs the back which leads to you needing to let the front move itself, a relaxed grip is needed on the bars over uneven surfaces, otherwise you will transfer so of that motion from the handlebars, through your body to the pegs and the seat. That will lead to a loss of control. Utterly counter intuitive that to retain control over rough ground you want to almost let go of the handlebars.
There’s two great books - for direct machine control, “a twist of the wrist” volume 2 by keith code and for more abstract how to think about machine control - not
So much how to steer but why to steer and where to - then roadcraft by the uk police is another great book.
- sushiburps 4y agoIt's fascinating that the explanation of a countersteer is counterintuitive, but most people pick up on it without being taught. Kids learning to ride a bicycle will naturally add the countersteer before a turn.
- wanderingmoose 4y agoKeith Code (author of twist of the wrist) has a bike with fixed handle bars that he lets you ride as part of his superbike track/race school. It is really eye opening on how little control you have without countersteering. Here's a vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VqXBA-sGHA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VqXBA-sGHA His school: https://superbikeschool.com/ https://superbikeschool.com/
- slackersc 4y agoI think your second point is actually dangerous advice and it's one of the reasons I prefer Nick Ienatsch's book [1] and the Yamaha Champions [2] school to Keith Code/CSBS. You don't want to be adding throttle and lean angle at the same time and accelerating through a turn gives you less options to deal with mid-corner surprises. You can add throttle as you stand the bike up and drive out of the corner. Even on the road it's safer to trail the front brake into corners and keep weight on the front tire. Keeping the front suspension compressed will also make the bike turn better. None of the fast guys ride the way Code describes [3]. You can see Marc brake all the way to the apex with zero throttle. [1] https://www.amazon.com.au/Sport-Riding-Techniques-Develop-Confidence/dp/1893618072 https://www.amazon.com.au/Sport-Riding-Techniques-Develop-Co... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvrgn5akOm4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvrgn5akOm4 [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS3DTWq0QV8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS3DTWq0QV8
- vr46 4y ago+100 for Twist of the Wrist Volume 2 Although I think Roadcraft has been "superseded" by IAM with a simplified version called "How to be a better driver", I would use both.
- interstice 4y agoIt’s even more complex than that - motorcycle tyres have different curvature at the front and the rear, it’s pretty hard to get to the edge at the front even with moderate braking but I have routinely run to or off the edge of various rears on track days. There’s also fun things like the bikes geometry gets longer or shorter under acceleration or braking to help with turning and grip. The physics is quite beautiful (and a lot of fun)
- MarkMarine 4y agoUsing the whole front is there for some pretty extreme trail braking, more than I put into the front that’s for sure. I do have a comfortable 1-2 day use period for a rear on my R6, while I kind of squint at the front and figure I better replace it every couple rears I almost never feel it getting used up. Do you live in the Bay Area? What org do you ride with? I’m with PTT for track days and AFM for racing.
- interstice 4y agoSadly I am in Auckland NZ! Our race tracks are getting closed down, it’s quite a sad time.
- McNutty 4y agoTwist 2 is available for free on YouTube. Filmed decades ago but motorcycles are still mostly the same.
- HPsquared 4y agoOn the second point (the need to maintain light acceleration) I'd always thought this was more to counteract engine braking - if there is engine braking, that is more demand on the rear tyre, kind of like applying the brake - which takes up a bit of the "available" friction that could be used for cornering.
- pessimizer 4y agoI always thought that it's simply because as you turn left/right, the bike will fall to the left/right, and the acceleration delivers an outward force that levers the bike up against the friction of its tires (and disappears once the bike is vertical) i.e. the same thing that keeps bikes vertical and straight by themselves as long as they're getting power. That being said, I'm a rider not a thinker.
- balfirevic 4y ago> and the acceleration delivers an outward force that levers the bike up against the friction of its tires That force is there even if the bike turns at constant speed.
- Phenomenit 4y agoI think its for overcoming the braking that occurs when you turn because of the normal force. Even if you hold down the clutch the bike will brake more that if you run in a straight line.
- ehnto 4y agoI can only really explain it intuitively, in that when you pull on the rear brake or engine brake, the angular forces of the rotation of the wheel are transferred into making your bike straighten up vertically. I don't know if that actually happens, but that's how it feels. Part of it is also similar to the reasons you trail brake into corners, in that you're managing the weight distribution over your tires. You don't want to be erratically changing how much weight is on the front tires, otherwise you'll find you suddenly have a lot less front grip.
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
- mod 4y agoBig second recommendation for twist of the wrist. You can watch a pretty cheesy, but very informative version of it on youtube. Craig, thanks for the comment and recommendations. I think I'll check out Roadcraft.
- d1l 4y agoTwist of the wrist is fantastic, as is the video, which can be found on YouTube. Agree with everything you said, and I'm curious: what do you ride? I've been tracking a mostly-stock R6 for the last 5 years, A the last 3 or 4. One thing I thought I'd add is that with motorcycles, the rider is a significant fraction of the total mass, so your position on the bike can greatly affect the center of gravity. You see guys leaning off the bike (towards the apex of a corner), which allows the bike to stand up taller, thus requiring less lean angle/more contact patch, which allows for higher speed and better grip at corner exit. Oh and another surprising thing: on track I never use the rear brake when braking hard. Why? Hard braking lifts the rear wheel, and when you use the rear brake it becomes incredibly easy to lose rear traction!
- CraigJPerry 4y ago>> what do you ride I sold my S1000XR (first generation) and was all set for a Tuono V4 but i really didn't get on with it. I'm 6'3 so a 2nd gen S1000XR looks likely next. I'd love a shot on the new Triumph TE-1 when it launches though. >> I've been tracking a mostly-stock R6 I think that's the most popular bike here too, if i had space for 2 bikes, i'd do the same as you and have an R6 for track.
- d1l 4y agoNice, I see some rsv4's at the track, still waiting to see a new rs660 so I can bombard the owner with questions. The new R7 is supposed to be "fun" to track, as it's got the more user-friendly mt07 engine, but its nothing compared to the scream of the 6. When mine inevitably blows up I'll probably be looking between the aprilia or maybe a gsxrr.
- saraton1n 4y agoyea, it's so much easier to lock the rear tire when braking hard. i've owned two different Suzuki GS500s (a 1996 GS500e and a 2006 GS500f) and both of them were notoriously easy to lock up the rear wheel on
- koonsolo 4y agoMotorcycle physics are very interesting to say the least. My favorite is this: What happens to the suspensions when you brake? Front one compresses while the back one extends. That one was easy. Now this: What happens to the suspensions when you accelerate? Front one extends while the back one... also extends. Motorcycles are specially designed to have this last behavior.
- ahartmetz 4y agoSomething I've only read about... Earlier BMW motorcycles with shaft drive were infamous for their "Gummikuh" ("rubber cow") behavior, rising strongly in the rear when accelerating. The shaft drive was later modified to reduce that.
- sbaiddn 4y agoLet me blow your mind: "What happens to the suspensions when you brake" Depends on the suspension!! Earles front suspensions rise on braking, transferring weight to the rear. Its counter intuitive until you realize that the forward momentum of the bike is on an arm that has to rise to allow forward motion of the body relative to the front tire. I think BMWs paralever could also rise on braking, but could be adjusted not to and all were.
- dj_mc_merlin 4y ago> Utterly counter intuitive that to retain control over rough ground you want to almost let go of the handlebars. I've hiked through a lot of forests ever since I was a kid and have a method, often criticized, but that has never injured me, of going down difficult terrain. I more or less glide down at a constant speed, putting my feet in places to apply upwards force. It helps a great deal that I have very flexible angles and can bend at near 90 degree angles. I usually get down very quickly and without fuss, whereas the slower more deliberate method tends to produce bigger falls. You tense up more when you're going down like that, and are more likely to produce uncontrolled fall, which is what kills you. If you can control your fall (throw yourself lightly at a patch that will stop you quickly and not injure you) and go a bit limp to disperse energy quickly, you can fall a lot more than most people but get injured less. I learned this technique from skateboarding. The idea is to learn to do a controlled fall whenever you're in danger into a safe area, rather than possibly risk an uncontrolled fall. I've been called an idiot for doing this but I have never broken a bone nor had significant injury while hiking. Anyway, my point is, sometimes just letting the movement flow naturally is the correct thing to do, even if it means the speed involved/perceived danger is higher.
- benj111 4y agoLiving in a hilly area, this is the way to go down hills. If you tense you get tired going down, aswell as up hills.
- tnelsond2 4y agoNot sure I follow. What I do is let gravity push me downhill and I keep one foot in front of the other and I gallop, hopping down the hill but always keeping a leading foot so that I never have to do the full movement of switching legs like in normal walking. Because I don't switch my feet I can keep up faster than I can run and I don't slip because I always have 2 feet on the ground at a time and it's kinda like surfing without the board.
- dj_mc_merlin 4y agoYep, that's what I was talking about. The leading foot does switch for me but only depending on what needs to be stepped on, not a normal walking switch.
- RileyJames 4y agoA twist of the wrist. Great to see it show up here. The only instruction I took before I bought a bike and rode 6000km to the uyuni salt flats. With near zero experience, that film pretty much saved my life.