4 ms·

I feel it makes raid groups pointless. If they're not organized then they're mostly just background noise.

gabereiser 4y ago
But usually there's other options if you want to be specific about who you invite. Clans/Guilds are moderated (require approval) and parties are (accept invite) so a raid group is just a lump of parties together for a goal. This, I support. Having to "lfrg bleh bleh" sucks and is never an effective use of your time in a game. Raid Finders (like Party Finders) promised to deliver a better experience but failed for the most part as people continue to restrict who they play with. How would you solve raid groups NOT being pointless while also making sure that players who want to participate, can, without having to play the "pick me for your team" game?
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  I would just do NPCs if you want to imply you're part of a group. This has the added advantage of making everyone unique even if there's a boring 3 unit meta amongst a giant roster of classes or characters or whatever. Most co-op gameplay in MMO types of games is really bad. Consisting of either mindless support roles that just cast buffs or heals on a recurring timer without too much consideration of anything else; or of brutally picky metas that require specific movement patterns that you're just screwed on if you don't know them. Especially if there's no communication features. If you just meet some randoms, don't really talk to them, and just kind of hope they don't kill the run, then forget about them, that's a bad experience. Good multiplayer requires you to interact with other people. Carefully orchestrated raid team crafting is an option without much mass appeal but it is an option. Since it's not really possible to expect coordination among strangers, and there's a high demand for gameplay with strangers, I would say the game needs to be highly reactive. That is to say, your optimal gameplay can't be pre determined. It depends on what they do, and randomness. The general idea that its ok to just drop into a random group and give it a try implies that the content has to be really easy otherwise people will get frustrated. It depends on the game.
  - Retric 4y ago
    I briefly did top tier raiding and even that doesn’t expect actual coordination among players beyond hitting the correct meta. It all ends up as everyone playing slightly different mini games as people eventually memorize whatever line dance is needed to get the loot piñata to pop. Swap people between different parties or even equivalent guilds and there’s basically zero learning curve. I don’t think this is an issue with MMO games, I think it’s a problem where teamwork is hard. Even just consistently getting a large group together at the same time and not breaking down due to interpersonal conflict is a heavy hurdle. Expecting people to then follow complex plans while also filling the basic roles of the game and not standing in fire is just more than most groups could do.
    - spywaregorilla 4y ago
      > Expecting people to then follow complex plans while also filling the basic roles of the game and not standing in fire is just more than most groups could do. But it is interesting, and I would say your experience described was not. Large complex team plans are probably not a great model for most games. I would like to see a situation that required tight coordination among a very small group of 2-3 and light coordination across these groups. Even sweeter if there's only communication between group leaders and intra group.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - Retric 4y ago
        The top is extremely challenging which is it’s own kind of fun. People don’t fail raids 50 times in a row because they are playing around. Everyone is trying their best and doing micro optimizations to get just a tiny bit better until finally you succeed. So it is interesting in it’s own way.
- everforward 4y ago
  > How would you solve raid groups NOT being pointless while also making sure that players who want to participate, can, without having to play the "pick me for your team" game? Allow someone to create a raid/party and define filters on who is allowed. Ideally there would be an LFR system they're exposed to, as well as a filter on who is allowed to join the raid so that anyone can invite anyone. If you meet the criteria, you can join the raid without asking. I think the underlying issue is trying to be inclusive of everyone (hardcore people don't want to play with casual people, and often vice versa), and exposing simplistic interfaces to people who are okay with complexity. I think TradeSkill Master is a good example for WoW. People love that. Give two interfaces; one is a casual interface with basic but useful options, and the other is a complicated "whatever you need" interface. Let the hardcore people use advanced filters with complicated interactions, and let the casual people use a basic "I just want people with enough gear to theoretically clear it" interface.
  - spywaregorilla 4y ago
    The problem is the balance though. If no coordination is viable then what's the purpose of coordination? Higher difficulties aren't a great solution. People always want to do the hardest and will complain if their typical strat of joining randos doesn't work

But usually there's other options if you want to be specific about who you invite. Clans/Guilds are moderated (require approval) and parties are (accept invite) so a raid group is just a lump of parties together for a goal. This, I support. Having to "lfrg bleh bleh" sucks and is never an effective use of your time in a game. Raid Finders (like Party Finders) promised to deliver a better experience but failed for the most part as people continue to restrict who they play with. How would you solve raid groups NOT being pointless while also making sure that players who want to participate, can, without having to play the "pick me for your team" game?

spywaregorilla 4y ago
I would just do NPCs if you want to imply you're part of a group. This has the added advantage of making everyone unique even if there's a boring 3 unit meta amongst a giant roster of classes or characters or whatever. Most co-op gameplay in MMO types of games is really bad. Consisting of either mindless support roles that just cast buffs or heals on a recurring timer without too much consideration of anything else; or of brutally picky metas that require specific movement patterns that you're just screwed on if you don't know them. Especially if there's no communication features. If you just meet some randoms, don't really talk to them, and just kind of hope they don't kill the run, then forget about them, that's a bad experience. Good multiplayer requires you to interact with other people. Carefully orchestrated raid team crafting is an option without much mass appeal but it is an option. Since it's not really possible to expect coordination among strangers, and there's a high demand for gameplay with strangers, I would say the game needs to be highly reactive. That is to say, your optimal gameplay can't be pre determined. It depends on what they do, and randomness. The general idea that its ok to just drop into a random group and give it a try implies that the content has to be really easy otherwise people will get frustrated. It depends on the game.
- Retric 4y ago
  I briefly did top tier raiding and even that doesn’t expect actual coordination among players beyond hitting the correct meta. It all ends up as everyone playing slightly different mini games as people eventually memorize whatever line dance is needed to get the loot piñata to pop. Swap people between different parties or even equivalent guilds and there’s basically zero learning curve. I don’t think this is an issue with MMO games, I think it’s a problem where teamwork is hard. Even just consistently getting a large group together at the same time and not breaking down due to interpersonal conflict is a heavy hurdle. Expecting people to then follow complex plans while also filling the basic roles of the game and not standing in fire is just more than most groups could do.
  - spywaregorilla 4y ago
    > Expecting people to then follow complex plans while also filling the basic roles of the game and not standing in fire is just more than most groups could do. But it is interesting, and I would say your experience described was not. Large complex team plans are probably not a great model for most games. I would like to see a situation that required tight coordination among a very small group of 2-3 and light coordination across these groups. Even sweeter if there's only communication between group leaders and intra group.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - Retric 4y ago
      The top is extremely challenging which is it’s own kind of fun. People don’t fail raids 50 times in a row because they are playing around. Everyone is trying their best and doing micro optimizations to get just a tiny bit better until finally you succeed. So it is interesting in it’s own way.
everforward 4y ago
> How would you solve raid groups NOT being pointless while also making sure that players who want to participate, can, without having to play the "pick me for your team" game? Allow someone to create a raid/party and define filters on who is allowed. Ideally there would be an LFR system they're exposed to, as well as a filter on who is allowed to join the raid so that anyone can invite anyone. If you meet the criteria, you can join the raid without asking. I think the underlying issue is trying to be inclusive of everyone (hardcore people don't want to play with casual people, and often vice versa), and exposing simplistic interfaces to people who are okay with complexity. I think TradeSkill Master is a good example for WoW. People love that. Give two interfaces; one is a casual interface with basic but useful options, and the other is a complicated "whatever you need" interface. Let the hardcore people use advanced filters with complicated interactions, and let the casual people use a basic "I just want people with enough gear to theoretically clear it" interface.
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  The problem is the balance though. If no coordination is viable then what's the purpose of coordination? Higher difficulties aren't a great solution. People always want to do the hardest and will complain if their typical strat of joining randos doesn't work