4 ms·

Heh, you got off easy. I spent six years of actual work learning this lesson the hard way back in 2006-2012. In retrospect, I should have paid a lot more atte

by lisper 4y ago

Heh, you got off easy. I spent six years of actual work learning this lesson the hard way back in 2006-2012. In retrospect, I should have paid a lot more attention when Patric Collison told me he was spending his days reading up banking regulations. Eh, too boring, I thought, what could possibly be in there that a little code couldn't paper over? That mistake cost me the opportunity to be an early hire at Stripe.

mike_d 4y ago
Yup. This is why every attempt to provide developers better access to banking/finance is doomed to fail. Even if you buy your own bank charter, you are still subject to someone elses rules. Your customers want to be innovative and do things they can't easily do today. On the other side is your financial network that has shut down the three previous attempts to do that exact thing because it causes a random transaction clearing server in France to burst into flames. You are now left holding the bag with both sides upset at you.
- lisper 4y ago
  I'm am often amazed that the entire world financial system hasn't collapsed yet, considering what I now know about how it is put together.
  - jrockway 4y ago
    I guess credit and undos smooth over most of the problems.
    - lisper 4y ago
      Yes, that certainly helps a lot, but I'm pretty sure that would crumble under certain not-terribly-difficult-to-execute attacks. The happy fact of the matter is that the vast majority of actors in the economy seem to be pretty well-behaved. The scary thing is that the system seems to depend on this.
      - joe-collins 4y ago
        I don't think that's specific to the economy. I think that's a succinct description of civilization.
        avg_dev 4y ago
        I think of this every once in a while. We trust, a lot. Things would be different if we didn’t. I believe laws generally protect us after the fact, not before.
      - Clent 4y ago
        Sounds like bitcoin's 51% attack issues. Only I'm guessing it doesn't take half as much to create crumble the banking system.
      - kebman 4y ago
        It's because of mutually assured destruction. It's the same reason why there's a tacit agreement between enemy heads of state to not just assassinate each other. Doing so would just start a new world order that wouldn't be in anyone's interest. Sort of like nuking an enemy isn't a good idea either because of the retaliatory consequences it would necessarily cause.
      - vinay_ys 4y ago
        > The happy fact of the matter is that the vast majority of actors in the economy seem to be pretty well-behaved. That's mainly because, in most countries, to become a participant in a regulated financial system, you have to meet the 'fit and proper' criteria of qualification [https://www.bis.org/publ/bcbs47c4.pdf https://www.bis.org/publ/bcbs47c4.pdf]. There are continuous audits and enforcement/disciplinary actions taken to ensure regulatory compliance. Also, digitisation has enabled tech based regulatory/supervisory tooling to reduce the burden of regulatory/supervisory activities. And, as newer/faster tech based mechanisms/rails have gained adoption older more cumbersome rails are getting retired. This is leading to effective regulatory simplifications.
  - icy 4y ago
    > considering what I now know about how it is put together As someone who doesn't, I'd love to hear more.
    - londons_explore 4y ago
      Lots of CSV files of transactions sent between banks by sftp servers and processed by big COBOL mainframes. Any part of this process that is modernized still has to emulate the old...
      - Dave3of5 4y ago
        Ah yes the old BAI format which is totally not a CSV file with a bunch of insane rules that differ per bank and are passed around via sftp server that are on the internet. I'm glad I quit that job. The only problem is when I tell people how the bank actually move money they don't believe me.
      - lisper 4y ago
        Yep, a shocking amount of ad-hoc processes and standards held over from the 70s and earlier. Also, most surprising to me, very few people in the industry actually understand how it works. Most people have never met an actual banker. The people in your local bank branch are sales people and technicians. It is nearly impossible even to find someone who really knows what is going on under the hood, let alone get a meeting with them. And there is no documentation, no primer you can read to bring you up to speed the way you can learn about emacs or Javascript. It's all a good-old-boy network, and even finding an actual member of the club to talk to is nearly impossible.
  - vjk800 4y ago
    It's because approximately 100-1000 times more people and resources are used to maintain it than would be needed in any other system of similar size and technical complexity.
    - vjk800 4y ago
      To add to my comment: since the financial system is almost impossible to fix, the problem only keeps getting worse and worse. I predict that eventually 99% of the world population is employed in somehow managing the global financial system. After that point, it just collapses and no-one knows what comes next.
      - Cthulhu_ 4y ago
        That's got some Universal Paperclips energy... It wouldn't collapse, it would evolve into its own artificial intelligence that keeps expanding until it fills the universe and follows it to the heat death of the universe. Can the workings of the second law of thermodynamics be reversed?
- kebman 4y ago
  Almost no rules within crypto, if you want to experiment. It's one of the selling points of the scene. OTOH regulation is slowly but steadily making its way over there as well.
kangaroozach 4y ago
Examples of what you discovered? This isn’t clicking for me…
- lisper 4y ago
  The biggest surprise was how hard it was to find anyone who actually understood how the system works. I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of people have never met an actual banker. All of the people you interact with at your local bank branch are either sales people or technicians. They know about as much about banking as the guy working the Jiffy Lube knows about cars. Not only that, but getting a meeting with someone who understands how banking actually works under the hood is nearly impossible. In fact, even finding such a person is nearly impossible. Not only do the front-line people in banks not understand how their industry works, they don't even know who does understand. There is also a huge disconnect between banking and IT. I once had half a million dollars go missing for two weeks because of a wire transfer snafu. No one could figure out where the money was. The only reason it was recovered is that the person to whom the money had been wired incorrectly noticed and sent it back.

by lisper 4y ago

mike_d 4y ago

Yup. This is why every attempt to provide developers better access to banking/finance is doomed to fail. Even if you buy your own bank charter, you are still subject to someone elses rules. Your customers want to be innovative and do things they can't easily do today. On the other side is your financial network that has shut down the three previous attempts to do that exact thing because it causes a random transaction clearing server in France to burst into flames. You are now left holding the bag with both sides upset at you.

lisper 4y ago
I'm am often amazed that the entire world financial system hasn't collapsed yet, considering what I now know about how it is put together.
- jrockway 4y ago
  I guess credit and undos smooth over most of the problems.
  - lisper 4y ago
    Yes, that certainly helps a lot, but I'm pretty sure that would crumble under certain not-terribly-difficult-to-execute attacks. The happy fact of the matter is that the vast majority of actors in the economy seem to be pretty well-behaved. The scary thing is that the system seems to depend on this.
    - joe-collins 4y ago
      I don't think that's specific to the economy. I think that's a succinct description of civilization.
      - avg_dev 4y ago
        I think of this every once in a while. We trust, a lot. Things would be different if we didn’t. I believe laws generally protect us after the fact, not before.
    - Clent 4y ago
      Sounds like bitcoin's 51% attack issues. Only I'm guessing it doesn't take half as much to create crumble the banking system.
    - kebman 4y ago
      It's because of mutually assured destruction. It's the same reason why there's a tacit agreement between enemy heads of state to not just assassinate each other. Doing so would just start a new world order that wouldn't be in anyone's interest. Sort of like nuking an enemy isn't a good idea either because of the retaliatory consequences it would necessarily cause.
    - vinay_ys 4y ago
      > The happy fact of the matter is that the vast majority of actors in the economy seem to be pretty well-behaved. That's mainly because, in most countries, to become a participant in a regulated financial system, you have to meet the 'fit and proper' criteria of qualification [https://www.bis.org/publ/bcbs47c4.pdf https://www.bis.org/publ/bcbs47c4.pdf]. There are continuous audits and enforcement/disciplinary actions taken to ensure regulatory compliance. Also, digitisation has enabled tech based regulatory/supervisory tooling to reduce the burden of regulatory/supervisory activities. And, as newer/faster tech based mechanisms/rails have gained adoption older more cumbersome rails are getting retired. This is leading to effective regulatory simplifications.
- icy 4y ago
  > considering what I now know about how it is put together As someone who doesn't, I'd love to hear more.
  - londons_explore 4y ago
    Lots of CSV files of transactions sent between banks by sftp servers and processed by big COBOL mainframes. Any part of this process that is modernized still has to emulate the old...
    - Dave3of5 4y ago
      Ah yes the old BAI format which is totally not a CSV file with a bunch of insane rules that differ per bank and are passed around via sftp server that are on the internet. I'm glad I quit that job. The only problem is when I tell people how the bank actually move money they don't believe me.
    - lisper 4y ago
      Yep, a shocking amount of ad-hoc processes and standards held over from the 70s and earlier. Also, most surprising to me, very few people in the industry actually understand how it works. Most people have never met an actual banker. The people in your local bank branch are sales people and technicians. It is nearly impossible even to find someone who really knows what is going on under the hood, let alone get a meeting with them. And there is no documentation, no primer you can read to bring you up to speed the way you can learn about emacs or Javascript. It's all a good-old-boy network, and even finding an actual member of the club to talk to is nearly impossible.
- vjk800 4y ago
  It's because approximately 100-1000 times more people and resources are used to maintain it than would be needed in any other system of similar size and technical complexity.
  - vjk800 4y ago
    To add to my comment: since the financial system is almost impossible to fix, the problem only keeps getting worse and worse. I predict that eventually 99% of the world population is employed in somehow managing the global financial system. After that point, it just collapses and no-one knows what comes next.
    - Cthulhu_ 4y ago
      That's got some Universal Paperclips energy... It wouldn't collapse, it would evolve into its own artificial intelligence that keeps expanding until it fills the universe and follows it to the heat death of the universe. Can the workings of the second law of thermodynamics be reversed?
kebman 4y ago
Almost no rules within crypto, if you want to experiment. It's one of the selling points of the scene. OTOH regulation is slowly but steadily making its way over there as well.

kangaroozach 4y ago

Examples of what you discovered? This isn’t clicking for me…

lisper 4y ago
The biggest surprise was how hard it was to find anyone who actually understood how the system works. I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of people have never met an actual banker. All of the people you interact with at your local bank branch are either sales people or technicians. They know about as much about banking as the guy working the Jiffy Lube knows about cars. Not only that, but getting a meeting with someone who understands how banking actually works under the hood is nearly impossible. In fact, even finding such a person is nearly impossible. Not only do the front-line people in banks not understand how their industry works, they don't even know who does understand. There is also a huge disconnect between banking and IT. I once had half a million dollars go missing for two weeks because of a wire transfer snafu. No one could figure out where the money was. The only reason it was recovered is that the person to whom the money had been wired incorrectly noticed and sent it back.