5 ms·

at first i thought this was just the standard party line. but then i got to the part that describes how i develop over-complex systems just so that i can charg

at first i thought this was just the standard party line. but then i got to the part that describes how i develop over-complex systems just so that i can charge more, and i realised just how deep the insight was. then an amazing hn-libertarian-market-forces thought hit me: why not have a market for software, where people have to pay for it? and then competition would push the people that make over-complex software out of business. of course, if that happened, then the world described in the article would be replaced by a different one: one where no-one wants to spend money on things that don't immediately show a profit. like security. but that would be a different article...

micheljansen 15y ago
Exactly. The article was quite interesting up until the introduction of the trojan kitten that systems are only overly complex because the people who build them need to justify spending 40 hours a week in a cubicle to build them. Systems are complex because the world is complex. If it could be done simpler, faster and more secure, it would be done simpler, faster and more secure.
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  To some people, Reality is just the byproduct of a million conspiracies. You sometimes just have to give up on those folks.
- throwaway64 15y ago
  >If it could be done simpler, faster and more secure, it would be done simpler, faster and more secure. With imperfect information, an optimal market cannot exist, security and complexity is one of those things that is very hard to assess before, and even after a purchase. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_for_lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_for_lemons I think purely from personal experience, what you are saying is absolutely untrue.
  - micheljansen 15y ago
    Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity ;)
luriel 15y ago
Except the 'market' for software is not comparable to any other real market because it is built on so called "Intellectual Property" which is basically government granted monopolies. This is again one of the reasons why complex software 'wins' in the 'market': more complex software over which you have a monopoly increases lock-in. Add in software patents, and real competition in this 'market' is almost impossible.
- true_religion 15y ago
  > Except the 'market' for software is not comparable to any other real market How about the publishing industry for books, movies, games, and other media? How about the pharmaceutical industry where lock-in is due to patent rights?
  - luriel 15y ago
    I don't think anyone would use any of those as examples of well functioning and efficient markets.
tptacek 15y ago
I don't know what this would solve, since many of the most grave vulnerabilities in big company networks are in software those companies wrote themselves.

micheljansen 15y ago

Exactly. The article was quite interesting up until the introduction of the trojan kitten that systems are only overly complex because the people who build them need to justify spending 40 hours a week in a cubicle to build them. Systems are complex because the world is complex. If it could be done simpler, faster and more secure, it would be done simpler, faster and more secure.

sliverstorm 15y ago
To some people, Reality is just the byproduct of a million conspiracies. You sometimes just have to give up on those folks.
throwaway64 15y ago
>If it could be done simpler, faster and more secure, it would be done simpler, faster and more secure. With imperfect information, an optimal market cannot exist, security and complexity is one of those things that is very hard to assess before, and even after a purchase. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_for_lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_for_lemons I think purely from personal experience, what you are saying is absolutely untrue.
- micheljansen 15y ago
  Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity ;)

luriel 15y ago

Except the 'market' for software is not comparable to any other real market because it is built on so called "Intellectual Property" which is basically government granted monopolies. This is again one of the reasons why complex software 'wins' in the 'market': more complex software over which you have a monopoly increases lock-in. Add in software patents, and real competition in this 'market' is almost impossible.

true_religion 15y ago
> Except the 'market' for software is not comparable to any other real market How about the publishing industry for books, movies, games, and other media? How about the pharmaceutical industry where lock-in is due to patent rights?
- luriel 15y ago
  I don't think anyone would use any of those as examples of well functioning and efficient markets.

tptacek 15y ago

I don't know what this would solve, since many of the most grave vulnerabilities in big company networks are in software those companies wrote themselves.