4 ms·

What are you trying to insinuate, that the COVID vaccine is causing this?

User23 4y ago
Dishonesty can never satisfy intellectual curiosity. It’s not an insinuation, it’s a scientific possibility that warrants further investigation, especially when boosters are being rushed to market with similarly abbreviated clinical trials. There are some reasons for suspicion. One is the rapid fading of the vaccine’s effectiveness. Why is it so much faster than expected? What’s the mechanism? Another is that every other coronavirus vaccine tested has resulted in decreased immune function due to Antibody dependent engancement. Do we know the current vaccines cause ADE? Not so far as I’m aware. Is it something that should be researched? I’d say so.
- strongpigeon 4y ago
  Not being aware of any research about ADE doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened… There has been a ton of it and it tends to be something that shows up pretty evidently in clinical trials. Not a research paper, but a good article talking about ADE: https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/91648 https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/9164...
canoebuilder 4y ago
- mortehu 4y ago
  If you do a Google Scholar search for COVID vaccines and all-cause mortality, you'll see that in most studies, people who got vaccinated die less in general (i.e. counting deaths from all causes). Population level or absolute increases in deaths do not tell you the marginal impact of getting vaccinated. For example, there's no contradiction between both vaccinated and unvaccinated dying more and vaccines being protective.
  - omniglottal 4y ago
    If you select for careful, risk-averse populations, you'll see correlary effects of your selection and theirs, irrellevant to the measure you're taking.
  - canoebuilder 4y ago
    People are dying at rates well outside historical norms. Things have causes. What is the cause of people dying more? One would think after a pandemic with an outsized effect on those already in a moribund state that overall deaths would be down, but they aren’t, they are up. Why is that? Why are excess deaths higher after rollout of the mRNA injections than before? Nothing about it adds up, other than one sacred cow elephant in the room. If people are dying more, there is a cause for that, people have tried everything they can that doesn’t involve going down sacred cow avenue, and they’ve come up empty.
    - collyw 4y ago
      Can be seen in the European data. Excess mortality should be back to normal levels, but it's barely changed between 2020, 2021 and 2022. Worse, older people do seem to be doing better but younger age groups worse. https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps#excess-mortality https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps#excess-mortality
    - autoexec 4y ago
      > People are dying at rates well outside historical norms. Things have causes. What is the cause of people dying more? I suspect it's your preexisting bias that makes you assume it's vaccines vs any vast number of other possible explanations. The point is, that we don't know what is driving these deaths. Research should be done, and if evidence turns up which suggests it's more likely vaccines than most other possibilities then sure it'd make sense to say vaccines may be the cause. Do you really think we have enough evidence pointing to vaccines being the cause right now? If so, where is it? Until we have more answers it's impossible to say what the cause is, but what we do know and have evidence for is that Covid has become extremely (and unnecessarily) politicized, that data on the number of cases and deaths have been being interfered with by government officials, that there is a very strong economic incentive to get people to act in ways that could cause them to get infected, and that people who have been careful are growing tired of the restrictions being safe puts on them as well. We absolutely should expect uncertainty in the number of cases and deaths we see reported, and that could result in some amount of increase in excess deaths. So could complications not directly attributed to the virus, but caused by it still. We've also got a whole lot of people these days drinking poisoned water and people who don't even have drinkable water. I can't even keep track of the all the cities that are under boil water orders. We've got people without power. We've got areas of the country flooding, other areas that on fire, people living in extreme poverty (including those who lost their job due to lockdowns or their ability to work because of long covid or their household income due to illness or deaths). It seems like if there's one thing we're going to have to start getting used to it's increasing amounts of death. With so many causes throwing their contributions into the mix it's going to take time to sort it all out and we'll have to do it in an environment where at least some of the data is being manipulated and many people have their egos wrapped up in "taking sides". Personally, I accepted the possibility that the vaccines could have terrible effects down the road (it was clear enough that there were no major issues in the short term) and I came to terms with that ages ago. If it does start to look like the vaccines have done some great harm then at least I can say that the choice to get vaccinated was easily the best that could be made with the information I had at the time. Sometimes you can make the right choice and still end up screwed when new information is discovered. I'm still hoping that doesn't turn out to be the case here, but if it is there's no point in denying it. Pretending it isn't true if it is would only make it harder to try to fix it (if that's even possible).
- krosaen 4y ago
  https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/04/pandemics-wrongest-man/618475/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/04/pandemics-...
  - canoebuilder 4y ago
    What part of that article do you think has aged well? Not that it wasn't braindead nonsense for anyone who cared to look at things with clear eyes even when it first came out.

Dishonesty can never satisfy intellectual curiosity. It’s not an insinuation, it’s a scientific possibility that warrants further investigation, especially when boosters are being rushed to market with similarly abbreviated clinical trials. There are some reasons for suspicion. One is the rapid fading of the vaccine’s effectiveness. Why is it so much faster than expected? What’s the mechanism? Another is that every other coronavirus vaccine tested has resulted in decreased immune function due to Antibody dependent engancement. Do we know the current vaccines cause ADE? Not so far as I’m aware. Is it something that should be researched? I’d say so.

strongpigeon 4y ago
Not being aware of any research about ADE doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened… There has been a ton of it and it tends to be something that shows up pretty evidently in clinical trials. Not a research paper, but a good article talking about ADE: https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/91648 https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/9164...

canoebuilder 4y ago

mortehu 4y ago
If you do a Google Scholar search for COVID vaccines and all-cause mortality, you'll see that in most studies, people who got vaccinated die less in general (i.e. counting deaths from all causes). Population level or absolute increases in deaths do not tell you the marginal impact of getting vaccinated. For example, there's no contradiction between both vaccinated and unvaccinated dying more and vaccines being protective.
- omniglottal 4y ago
  If you select for careful, risk-averse populations, you'll see correlary effects of your selection and theirs, irrellevant to the measure you're taking.
- canoebuilder 4y ago
  People are dying at rates well outside historical norms. Things have causes. What is the cause of people dying more? One would think after a pandemic with an outsized effect on those already in a moribund state that overall deaths would be down, but they aren’t, they are up. Why is that? Why are excess deaths higher after rollout of the mRNA injections than before? Nothing about it adds up, other than one sacred cow elephant in the room. If people are dying more, there is a cause for that, people have tried everything they can that doesn’t involve going down sacred cow avenue, and they’ve come up empty.
  - collyw 4y ago
    Can be seen in the European data. Excess mortality should be back to normal levels, but it's barely changed between 2020, 2021 and 2022. Worse, older people do seem to be doing better but younger age groups worse. https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps#excess-mortality https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps#excess-mortality
  - autoexec 4y ago
    > People are dying at rates well outside historical norms. Things have causes. What is the cause of people dying more? I suspect it's your preexisting bias that makes you assume it's vaccines vs any vast number of other possible explanations. The point is, that we don't know what is driving these deaths. Research should be done, and if evidence turns up which suggests it's more likely vaccines than most other possibilities then sure it'd make sense to say vaccines may be the cause. Do you really think we have enough evidence pointing to vaccines being the cause right now? If so, where is it? Until we have more answers it's impossible to say what the cause is, but what we do know and have evidence for is that Covid has become extremely (and unnecessarily) politicized, that data on the number of cases and deaths have been being interfered with by government officials, that there is a very strong economic incentive to get people to act in ways that could cause them to get infected, and that people who have been careful are growing tired of the restrictions being safe puts on them as well. We absolutely should expect uncertainty in the number of cases and deaths we see reported, and that could result in some amount of increase in excess deaths. So could complications not directly attributed to the virus, but caused by it still. We've also got a whole lot of people these days drinking poisoned water and people who don't even have drinkable water. I can't even keep track of the all the cities that are under boil water orders. We've got people without power. We've got areas of the country flooding, other areas that on fire, people living in extreme poverty (including those who lost their job due to lockdowns or their ability to work because of long covid or their household income due to illness or deaths). It seems like if there's one thing we're going to have to start getting used to it's increasing amounts of death. With so many causes throwing their contributions into the mix it's going to take time to sort it all out and we'll have to do it in an environment where at least some of the data is being manipulated and many people have their egos wrapped up in "taking sides". Personally, I accepted the possibility that the vaccines could have terrible effects down the road (it was clear enough that there were no major issues in the short term) and I came to terms with that ages ago. If it does start to look like the vaccines have done some great harm then at least I can say that the choice to get vaccinated was easily the best that could be made with the information I had at the time. Sometimes you can make the right choice and still end up screwed when new information is discovered. I'm still hoping that doesn't turn out to be the case here, but if it is there's no point in denying it. Pretending it isn't true if it is would only make it harder to try to fix it (if that's even possible).
krosaen 4y ago
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/04/pandemics-wrongest-man/618475/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/04/pandemics-...
- canoebuilder 4y ago
  What part of that article do you think has aged well? Not that it wasn't braindead nonsense for anyone who cared to look at things with clear eyes even when it first came out.