5 ms·

Universal basic income. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income)

mc32 4y ago
I think the pandemic proved this was a pipedream. Did people pursue their passions once they had government disbursements? No. They just moped around and became malaised and disinterested. Sure, we got tik-tokers, and YT personalities (all 'bourgeois-capitalist schmaltz'), but if that is what we get from that "investment" I don't want to invest any more. Previously hardworking people more or less got comfortable being freeloaders --taking but not giving back.
- lamontcg 4y ago
  > Did people pursue their passions once they had government disbursements? No. I'd argue that the wage inflation and labor shortages we're seeing in areas like food service indicates the correct answer to that question is "Yes" and that a lot of people spent the time "leetcoding" (or whatever) and landed a significantly better job.
  - mc32 4y ago
    Could be, but I'd like to see some data behind that.
    - thunky 4y ago
      I'd be interested to see the data to back up your claims as well. Regardless, I'm not sure the main point of UBI is to allow people to quit their jobs and pursue thier passions at the government's expense. It's moreso meant as a way to give people on the bottom rung a little bit of room to breath and better their circumstances, and in theory this also benefits the rest of the economy.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        America's largest experiment in UBI is probably the Alaska Permanent Fund (APF). APF appears to have little to no impact on employment [0], instead having effect of increased number of people getting zapped out their rocker on drugs[1]. [0] http://humcap.uchicago.edu/RePEc/hka/wpaper/Jones_Marinescu_2019_labor-market-impacts-universal-transfers.pdf http://humcap.uchicago.edu/RePEc/hka/wpaper/Jones_Marinescu_... [1] https://direct.mit.edu/rest/article-abstract/102/4/678/96772/Universal-Cash-and-Crime https://direct.mit.edu/rest/article-abstract/102/4/678/96772...
        thunky 4y ago
        The abstract in [1] says that drug use ticked up, amounting to a small portion of the UBI payment. And property crime ticked down, but overall crime was not affected substantially. Concluding: crime-related concerns of a universal cash transfer program may be unwarranted. So I don't think this makes the point you want it to make.
        notch656a 4y ago
        What point is it that you're saying I want it to make? Please cite my comment so I can understand exactly what you're referring to.
        thunky 4y ago
        You said (here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32827491 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32827491) that the APF led to: > increased number of people getting zapped out their rocker on drugs Which was part of your case that APF is a failed experiment and not worthwhile. But the study you cited does not suggest that UBI created an increased number of drug abusers. It did say that there was an uptick in drug incidents, but it also concluded that UBI payments were not responsible for increasing crime (when considering drug incidents and other crimes in total). It's likely that drug use always ticks up on payday, UBI or not. Same for gambling and other bad habits that require money. I've never heard anyone suggest that the solution to drug abuse is to make people so poor that they can't afford to buy drugs, but in a roundabout way this is kindof what you're saying. Grocery shopping and paying bills and likely tick up on payday as well.
- notch656a 4y ago
  Don't forget the "mostly peaceful protests" which of course were not at all associated with lots of "free" money to be idle along with stay-at-home orders that are not consistent with maintaining mental health of the population.

mc32 4y ago

I think the pandemic proved this was a pipedream. Did people pursue their passions once they had government disbursements? No. They just moped around and became malaised and disinterested. Sure, we got tik-tokers, and YT personalities (all 'bourgeois-capitalist schmaltz'), but if that is what we get from that "investment" I don't want to invest any more. Previously hardworking people more or less got comfortable being freeloaders --taking but not giving back.

lamontcg 4y ago
> Did people pursue their passions once they had government disbursements? No. I'd argue that the wage inflation and labor shortages we're seeing in areas like food service indicates the correct answer to that question is "Yes" and that a lot of people spent the time "leetcoding" (or whatever) and landed a significantly better job.
- mc32 4y ago
  Could be, but I'd like to see some data behind that.
  - thunky 4y ago
    I'd be interested to see the data to back up your claims as well. Regardless, I'm not sure the main point of UBI is to allow people to quit their jobs and pursue thier passions at the government's expense. It's moreso meant as a way to give people on the bottom rung a little bit of room to breath and better their circumstances, and in theory this also benefits the rest of the economy.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      America's largest experiment in UBI is probably the Alaska Permanent Fund (APF). APF appears to have little to no impact on employment [0], instead having effect of increased number of people getting zapped out their rocker on drugs[1]. [0] http://humcap.uchicago.edu/RePEc/hka/wpaper/Jones_Marinescu_2019_labor-market-impacts-universal-transfers.pdf http://humcap.uchicago.edu/RePEc/hka/wpaper/Jones_Marinescu_... [1] https://direct.mit.edu/rest/article-abstract/102/4/678/96772/Universal-Cash-and-Crime https://direct.mit.edu/rest/article-abstract/102/4/678/96772...
      - thunky 4y ago
        The abstract in [1] says that drug use ticked up, amounting to a small portion of the UBI payment. And property crime ticked down, but overall crime was not affected substantially. Concluding: crime-related concerns of a universal cash transfer program may be unwarranted. So I don't think this makes the point you want it to make.
        notch656a 4y ago
        What point is it that you're saying I want it to make? Please cite my comment so I can understand exactly what you're referring to.
        thunky 4y ago
        You said (here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32827491 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32827491) that the APF led to: > increased number of people getting zapped out their rocker on drugs Which was part of your case that APF is a failed experiment and not worthwhile. But the study you cited does not suggest that UBI created an increased number of drug abusers. It did say that there was an uptick in drug incidents, but it also concluded that UBI payments were not responsible for increasing crime (when considering drug incidents and other crimes in total). It's likely that drug use always ticks up on payday, UBI or not. Same for gambling and other bad habits that require money. I've never heard anyone suggest that the solution to drug abuse is to make people so poor that they can't afford to buy drugs, but in a roundabout way this is kindof what you're saying. Grocery shopping and paying bills and likely tick up on payday as well.
notch656a 4y ago
Don't forget the "mostly peaceful protests" which of course were not at all associated with lots of "free" money to be idle along with stay-at-home orders that are not consistent with maintaining mental health of the population.