4 ms·

So basically the article is describing it as some sort of anarcho-capitalist paradise, whereas in reality it's some sort of anarcho-capitalist dystopia.

jsnk 15y ago
Not really. It is not necessarily relative absence of government that is creating some negative fallout. The same sort of things you mentioned do happen all over China, even in Beijing and Shanghai where government police presence is substantially larger. Keep in mind that westernization of China over last 30 years should be considered as a brand new phenomenon in historical context. China is still learning. Experimenting with market capitalism ensured China that it would grow at a tremendous pace, but it also resulted in a huge environmental, social and legal errors along the way. But what else would you expect from a country that is just starting to wake up from monarchical and communist despotism for several millennial? All I can say for now is, give it more time.
- erikb 15y ago
  I was preaching the same words you preach now. What changed? There is really, f*in slavery, child work, forced prostitution, gambling additiction + loan sharks and so on. I couldn't believe it until I was there. Now, that I feel connected to the people and the deep culture there, I can't say anymore "give them time". It is time for a change and that change will come. Chinese people themself have enough of it, although I think it will still be 5 or 10 years until they really start to fight.
  - jsnk 15y ago
    Giving them more time is the right answer. You ask what changed? You seriously underestimate the kind of China has gone through. China over last 30 years has seen changes that were monumental. Literally, millions and millions of people can now feed themselves with 3 meals a day. China has never been as prosperous as this before, and things are getting better. Keep in mind that all the horrible things you mentioned are not unique phenomena historically. All those things were there in abundance long before industrialization took place in China. Therefore, these phenomena are not results of industrialization. In fact, more industrialization, more modernization, freer market, removal of notoriously bureaucratic China's communist government regulatory hurdles are what would make China prosperous.
    - erikb 15y ago
      I don't ask what changed in China but what changed in my oppinion. Sorry for the confusion.
  - yaix 15y ago
    What you describe and what shocked you is daily reality in most developing countries--poverty is ugly. During the next 2 years will be the handover of gov't to the next president and it will be up to him where China goes: the way of Brazil and many African countries with a Gini-Index of 70 and above, or a society with more social equality like the US or even Europe. However, I have become rather pessimistic in the past two years if there is even a chance for the next president to push China towards more equality. Because that would mean paying taxes and rule of law for the rich. And the rich will not like that.
    - erikb 15y ago
      I agree that the next government very likely can't change the inherent problems of the Chinese society. But I think the Chinese youth can. If you look at the Chinese news you see young people rebelling against the system every day and they become more. Also the government is not as strict and well organised as it was many years ago, when their tanks where fighting the student protesters. The Chinese government itself is fat, lazy and far away from the real life situation of most Chinese citizen. I think the chances are not too low that there will be revolution kind of change. Maybe cultural, maybe not with weapons and that stuff. But the Chinese people know too much about the wealth of their rich comrades, of their big cities and of the western countries.
gbog 15y ago
No, reality is both. The problem with China is that whatever you say about it is true and false at the same time. As Pascal said earlier: "La Chine obscurcit" (China darkens). The mafias and anarchist dystopia described by GP exists in China. In my nearly 9 years here I have received some reflections of this (random pick: I have spent a night near a children factory near Hong-Kong). But saying that China, or even Wenzhou is an anarchist dystopia is wrong. It is similar to describing New-York with a picture from the Bronx during a "bad day". On the opposite, saying that Wenzhou and other places are economic paradise where anyone can do whatever they want without the central government even being aware of this is false. These coastal regions have been set up as an experiment on economic opening by Deng Xiaoping, and Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao have been in fact "chosen" by him, in order to continue in the same tracks. You can count on the current government to care about these places, and to be ready to do whatever is needed if it goes too far. What is happening in China right now is impressive, and such a fast mutation is probably unseen in the world history at this scale. It will have a great impact on the world. Will it be for the best or for the worst? I can't be sure, but what I know is that knowing better each other, increasing exchanges between West and East, is the best and only way we have to push a little, just a little bit, away from the worst case scenario.
- erikb 15y ago
  What you say is correct. I can't give an objective view, either. The truth is, that you can't understand China, if you don't go there for a long time (>6 months at least). For me it was really a schocking experience, because even though I saw such things in cinema before, deep in my sould I couldn't believe that this can really be the true daily life of people on this planet. If you life in a high quality, European country it is just not possible to imagine that human rights are not a natural thing to be, that police could be feared not for a speed ticket, but for putting you in jail without reason, for stealing from you, beating you, raping you and maybe even killing you. Or that quite normal people never went to any doctor, or that there house has neither electricity nor flowing water. Experiencing all that in a short time was really a shock for me and I am sure that overexagarate. I just can share my experience, how I experienced it.
- john_flintstone 15y ago
erikb 15y ago
Yes, that is exactly how my experience in China is different from what I read in this article.

jsnk 15y ago

Not really. It is not necessarily relative absence of government that is creating some negative fallout. The same sort of things you mentioned do happen all over China, even in Beijing and Shanghai where government police presence is substantially larger. Keep in mind that westernization of China over last 30 years should be considered as a brand new phenomenon in historical context. China is still learning. Experimenting with market capitalism ensured China that it would grow at a tremendous pace, but it also resulted in a huge environmental, social and legal errors along the way. But what else would you expect from a country that is just starting to wake up from monarchical and communist despotism for several millennial? All I can say for now is, give it more time.

erikb 15y ago
I was preaching the same words you preach now. What changed? There is really, f*in slavery, child work, forced prostitution, gambling additiction + loan sharks and so on. I couldn't believe it until I was there. Now, that I feel connected to the people and the deep culture there, I can't say anymore "give them time". It is time for a change and that change will come. Chinese people themself have enough of it, although I think it will still be 5 or 10 years until they really start to fight.
- jsnk 15y ago
  Giving them more time is the right answer. You ask what changed? You seriously underestimate the kind of China has gone through. China over last 30 years has seen changes that were monumental. Literally, millions and millions of people can now feed themselves with 3 meals a day. China has never been as prosperous as this before, and things are getting better. Keep in mind that all the horrible things you mentioned are not unique phenomena historically. All those things were there in abundance long before industrialization took place in China. Therefore, these phenomena are not results of industrialization. In fact, more industrialization, more modernization, freer market, removal of notoriously bureaucratic China's communist government regulatory hurdles are what would make China prosperous.
  - erikb 15y ago
    I don't ask what changed in China but what changed in my oppinion. Sorry for the confusion.
- yaix 15y ago
  What you describe and what shocked you is daily reality in most developing countries--poverty is ugly. During the next 2 years will be the handover of gov't to the next president and it will be up to him where China goes: the way of Brazil and many African countries with a Gini-Index of 70 and above, or a society with more social equality like the US or even Europe. However, I have become rather pessimistic in the past two years if there is even a chance for the next president to push China towards more equality. Because that would mean paying taxes and rule of law for the rich. And the rich will not like that.
  - erikb 15y ago
    I agree that the next government very likely can't change the inherent problems of the Chinese society. But I think the Chinese youth can. If you look at the Chinese news you see young people rebelling against the system every day and they become more. Also the government is not as strict and well organised as it was many years ago, when their tanks where fighting the student protesters. The Chinese government itself is fat, lazy and far away from the real life situation of most Chinese citizen. I think the chances are not too low that there will be revolution kind of change. Maybe cultural, maybe not with weapons and that stuff. But the Chinese people know too much about the wealth of their rich comrades, of their big cities and of the western countries.

gbog 15y ago

No, reality is both. The problem with China is that whatever you say about it is true and false at the same time. As Pascal said earlier: "La Chine obscurcit" (China darkens). The mafias and anarchist dystopia described by GP exists in China. In my nearly 9 years here I have received some reflections of this (random pick: I have spent a night near a children factory near Hong-Kong). But saying that China, or even Wenzhou is an anarchist dystopia is wrong. It is similar to describing New-York with a picture from the Bronx during a "bad day". On the opposite, saying that Wenzhou and other places are economic paradise where anyone can do whatever they want without the central government even being aware of this is false. These coastal regions have been set up as an experiment on economic opening by Deng Xiaoping, and Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao have been in fact "chosen" by him, in order to continue in the same tracks. You can count on the current government to care about these places, and to be ready to do whatever is needed if it goes too far. What is happening in China right now is impressive, and such a fast mutation is probably unseen in the world history at this scale. It will have a great impact on the world. Will it be for the best or for the worst? I can't be sure, but what I know is that knowing better each other, increasing exchanges between West and East, is the best and only way we have to push a little, just a little bit, away from the worst case scenario.

erikb 15y ago
What you say is correct. I can't give an objective view, either. The truth is, that you can't understand China, if you don't go there for a long time (>6 months at least). For me it was really a schocking experience, because even though I saw such things in cinema before, deep in my sould I couldn't believe that this can really be the true daily life of people on this planet. If you life in a high quality, European country it is just not possible to imagine that human rights are not a natural thing to be, that police could be feared not for a speed ticket, but for putting you in jail without reason, for stealing from you, beating you, raping you and maybe even killing you. Or that quite normal people never went to any doctor, or that there house has neither electricity nor flowing water. Experiencing all that in a short time was really a shock for me and I am sure that overexagarate. I just can share my experience, how I experienced it.
john_flintstone 15y ago

erikb 15y ago

Yes, that is exactly how my experience in China is different from what I read in this article.