5 ms·

I really wonder why every time Scala is discussed on HN, someone wants to rewrite history about some mythical synergy with the Android ecosystem. This is so biz

I really wonder why every time Scala is discussed on HN, someone wants to rewrite history about some mythical synergy with the Android ecosystem. This is so bizarre. In what world would Typesafe/Lightbend have found the money and resources to pull off even a fraction of what Jetbrains did with Kotlin? Let alone convince Google. On the other hand I'm very happy Scala isn't tied to the Android runtime.

klibertp 4y ago
> In what world would Typesafe/Lightbend have found the money and resources to pull off even a fraction of what Jetbrains did with Kotlin? Let alone convince Google. What did Jetbrains do with Kotlin that required money and resources outside of Scala's community reach? (Also, what do you mean about convincing Google?) I learned Scala a few years back and am working with Kotlin this year. I use Android Studio - I expected to be mind-blown with the IDE support. I wasn't. The only feature worth mentioning is the automatic conversion of pasted Java code to Kotlin, which is really trivial to implement if you have tools for working with AST of both languages and a bit of free time. Scala is handicapped here, last I checked, and only got better with version 3 rewrite, but if that's a killer feature for Kotlin, then replicating it for Scala by heaping regexes until they cover 95% of cases would also work. I honestly don't see anything in Kotlin and the IDE that couldn't be implemented for Scala as a plugin, if there was interest in that.
- hocuspocus 4y ago
  I think you're vastly underestimating the amount of work required to support a platform like Android. How many people are directly employed by either JetBrains or Google to work on the Android + Kotlin story, vs the total number of Typesafe/Lightbend employees at its peak... which has always been burning through VC money and is financially struggling even after focusing on their core knowledge domain. > (Also, what do you mean about convincing Google?) Google decides what Android becomes or not. What makes you think they would have been interested in Scala in the first place? Even if someone did the integration work for free (which is an insane premise), Google likes boring languages. Plus, Scala's standard library is somewhat at odds with a fast and lean mobile runtime.
  - klibertp 4y ago
    > I think you're vastly underestimating the amount of work required to support a platform like Android. That might be so, but you're not giving me a chance to change my view. I don't know, and don't care honestly, how many people are working on what; I'm asking what did those people do, specifically, that required such an immense amount of work, and what they have to show for that effort. And of course, how many people work on developing Android itself is irrelevant - we're only talking about supporting existing compiler that targets existing implementation of a JVM in an IDE and ecosystem. Put another way: what's so impressive about Kotlin's support for Android? > total number of Typesafe/Lightbend employees at its peak... which has always been burning through VC money and is financially struggling even after focusing on their core knowledge domain. Maybe, then, focusing on their core knowledge domain, working for almost a decade on the "next version" of the language without care, then pulling Python-like 2/3 drama when it finally landed, was simply... a bad business decision? Maybe focusing effort on making the language more accessible to more people would have played out differently? (Just guessing.) > Plus, Scala's standard library is somewhat at odds with a fast and lean mobile runtime. Why? Generics and implicits are compile-time features - what's in the Scala's stdlib that is incompatible with Android APIs? What does Scala have in the stdlib that Kotlin doesn't?
    - hocuspocus 4y ago
      I'm not going to try to explain why developing and maintaining tooling takes resources. However, a few things: - Lightbend isn't involved in Scala 3. - Martin Odersky has taught students for decades and knows how to make Scala more accessible. He wasn't afraid of stirring controversy with new keywords and the brace-free syntax. He also has enough industry experience and connections to realize what matters for the ecosystem in the long run. Server middleware and big data frameworks are the perfect fit for Scala on the JVM. There's no evidence for some kind of missed opportunity between Android and Scala. - Scala's standard library is rich, heavy, focused on immutability, and not always interoperable with Java's. Kotlin's standard library is very small and heavily inlined in comparison. On a mobile platform, this matters.
      - 4y ago
- cryptos 4y ago
  JetBrains employs 70 people working on Kotlins core. > Today, 70+ people work on the core Kotlin project team at JetBrains https://kotlinlang.org/assets/kotlin-media-kit.pdf https://kotlinlang.org/assets/kotlin-media-kit.pdf Plus a bunch of Google employees working on Kotlin stuff like the new K2 compiler.

klibertp 4y ago

> In what world would Typesafe/Lightbend have found the money and resources to pull off even a fraction of what Jetbrains did with Kotlin? Let alone convince Google. What did Jetbrains do with Kotlin that required money and resources outside of Scala's community reach? (Also, what do you mean about convincing Google?) I learned Scala a few years back and am working with Kotlin this year. I use Android Studio - I expected to be mind-blown with the IDE support. I wasn't. The only feature worth mentioning is the automatic conversion of pasted Java code to Kotlin, which is really trivial to implement if you have tools for working with AST of both languages and a bit of free time. Scala is handicapped here, last I checked, and only got better with version 3 rewrite, but if that's a killer feature for Kotlin, then replicating it for Scala by heaping regexes until they cover 95% of cases would also work. I honestly don't see anything in Kotlin and the IDE that couldn't be implemented for Scala as a plugin, if there was interest in that.

hocuspocus 4y ago
I think you're vastly underestimating the amount of work required to support a platform like Android. How many people are directly employed by either JetBrains or Google to work on the Android + Kotlin story, vs the total number of Typesafe/Lightbend employees at its peak... which has always been burning through VC money and is financially struggling even after focusing on their core knowledge domain. > (Also, what do you mean about convincing Google?) Google decides what Android becomes or not. What makes you think they would have been interested in Scala in the first place? Even if someone did the integration work for free (which is an insane premise), Google likes boring languages. Plus, Scala's standard library is somewhat at odds with a fast and lean mobile runtime.
- klibertp 4y ago
  > I think you're vastly underestimating the amount of work required to support a platform like Android. That might be so, but you're not giving me a chance to change my view. I don't know, and don't care honestly, how many people are working on what; I'm asking what did those people do, specifically, that required such an immense amount of work, and what they have to show for that effort. And of course, how many people work on developing Android itself is irrelevant - we're only talking about supporting existing compiler that targets existing implementation of a JVM in an IDE and ecosystem. Put another way: what's so impressive about Kotlin's support for Android? > total number of Typesafe/Lightbend employees at its peak... which has always been burning through VC money and is financially struggling even after focusing on their core knowledge domain. Maybe, then, focusing on their core knowledge domain, working for almost a decade on the "next version" of the language without care, then pulling Python-like 2/3 drama when it finally landed, was simply... a bad business decision? Maybe focusing effort on making the language more accessible to more people would have played out differently? (Just guessing.) > Plus, Scala's standard library is somewhat at odds with a fast and lean mobile runtime. Why? Generics and implicits are compile-time features - what's in the Scala's stdlib that is incompatible with Android APIs? What does Scala have in the stdlib that Kotlin doesn't?
  - hocuspocus 4y ago
    I'm not going to try to explain why developing and maintaining tooling takes resources. However, a few things: - Lightbend isn't involved in Scala 3. - Martin Odersky has taught students for decades and knows how to make Scala more accessible. He wasn't afraid of stirring controversy with new keywords and the brace-free syntax. He also has enough industry experience and connections to realize what matters for the ecosystem in the long run. Server middleware and big data frameworks are the perfect fit for Scala on the JVM. There's no evidence for some kind of missed opportunity between Android and Scala. - Scala's standard library is rich, heavy, focused on immutability, and not always interoperable with Java's. Kotlin's standard library is very small and heavily inlined in comparison. On a mobile platform, this matters.
    - 4y ago
cryptos 4y ago
JetBrains employs 70 people working on Kotlins core. > Today, 70+ people work on the core Kotlin project team at JetBrains https://kotlinlang.org/assets/kotlin-media-kit.pdf https://kotlinlang.org/assets/kotlin-media-kit.pdf Plus a bunch of Google employees working on Kotlin stuff like the new K2 compiler.