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I've been to Macedonia, Poland and Hungary and I agree with everything said and implied about those countries in the GP. It is not necessary to travel to Polan

I've been to Macedonia, Poland and Hungary and I agree with everything said and implied about those countries in the GP. It is not necessary to travel to Poland or Hungary to be aware that the populist governments of these countries have embraced conspiratorialism, anti-semitism, anti-ziganism, revisionism, homophobia, while openly disregarding liberal institutions such as the separation of church and state, independence of the judiciary, freedom of expression, pluralism. You can simply listen to what people from those countries who do embrace the liberal values associated with the EU project have said about their home countries.

Tade0 4y ago
> You can simply listen to what people from those countries who do embrace the liberal values associated with the EU project have said about their home countries. Would you throw them under the bus just to keep the populists out of the Union? Also now that apparently Sweden is going to have a populist right-wing government, should they leave the EU? To be clear: I'm asking these questions to highlight the ridiculousness of looking at a whole country through the lens of their (temporary) government.
- wikfwikf 4y ago
  The point is not that they should be thrown out of the EU, but that the EU is now much more reluctant to allow another country with similar social and political problems to join.
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  If Sweden starts undermining the rule of law, they should definitely be excluded yes. Sadly the EU has no law allowing it to do that. Governments are elected. It’s not stupid to look at what a country is actually doing. Hungary even gave Fidesz a second term. Countries which cross the EU red lines should be excluded no question.
4gotunameagain 4y ago
I agree with almost everything you wrote, but I can totally understand not being fond of gypsies. Throughout the Balkans their compounds are hives of criminality, guns and drugs, and that is not because they are discriminated against. They are incredibly closed and conservative (in their own ways) societies, against any form of integration and modernisation, while at the same time leeching off any benefits the host states provide them (healthcare, benefits, infrastructure) while not only providing nothing in return, but a negative effect.
- wikfwikf 4y ago
  Without necessarily agreeing with your characterisation, it can be true that achieving equality and plurality is difficult. However, there is a big difference between a government which is trying to resolve social problems and lead the population towards a better settlement, and one which takes advantage of divisions to create fear and appeal to the worse sentiments of the majority.
- rasz 4y ago
  Poland tries to accommodate backward/barbarian gypsie minorities in really weird/bad ways. There is actually a law that allows sex with minors .. if you are a gypsie, because those are your traditional religious ways: https://www.saos.org.pl/judgments/392058 https://www.saos.org.pl/judgments/392058 "since they got married according to the law and tradition of their community, and then undertook voluntary sexual intercourse, which is even an element, which the Court also knows ex officio, confirming the effectiveness of the marriage" It was ok to have sex with 14 year old child, because thats how you assert (illegal) marriage in this culture ...

Tade0 4y ago

> You can simply listen to what people from those countries who do embrace the liberal values associated with the EU project have said about their home countries. Would you throw them under the bus just to keep the populists out of the Union? Also now that apparently Sweden is going to have a populist right-wing government, should they leave the EU? To be clear: I'm asking these questions to highlight the ridiculousness of looking at a whole country through the lens of their (temporary) government.

wikfwikf 4y ago
The point is not that they should be thrown out of the EU, but that the EU is now much more reluctant to allow another country with similar social and political problems to join.
WastingMyTime89 4y ago
If Sweden starts undermining the rule of law, they should definitely be excluded yes. Sadly the EU has no law allowing it to do that. Governments are elected. It’s not stupid to look at what a country is actually doing. Hungary even gave Fidesz a second term. Countries which cross the EU red lines should be excluded no question.

4gotunameagain 4y ago

I agree with almost everything you wrote, but I can totally understand not being fond of gypsies. Throughout the Balkans their compounds are hives of criminality, guns and drugs, and that is not because they are discriminated against. They are incredibly closed and conservative (in their own ways) societies, against any form of integration and modernisation, while at the same time leeching off any benefits the host states provide them (healthcare, benefits, infrastructure) while not only providing nothing in return, but a negative effect.

wikfwikf 4y ago
Without necessarily agreeing with your characterisation, it can be true that achieving equality and plurality is difficult. However, there is a big difference between a government which is trying to resolve social problems and lead the population towards a better settlement, and one which takes advantage of divisions to create fear and appeal to the worse sentiments of the majority.
rasz 4y ago
Poland tries to accommodate backward/barbarian gypsie minorities in really weird/bad ways. There is actually a law that allows sex with minors .. if you are a gypsie, because those are your traditional religious ways: https://www.saos.org.pl/judgments/392058 https://www.saos.org.pl/judgments/392058 "since they got married according to the law and tradition of their community, and then undertook voluntary sexual intercourse, which is even an element, which the Court also knows ex officio, confirming the effectiveness of the marriage" It was ok to have sex with 14 year old child, because thats how you assert (illegal) marriage in this culture ...