5 ms·

Ukraine is at 28.4%, that probably speaks how much reserve storage they have. After the war it will be important location for Azerbaijan gas transit (via Georgi

by type0 4y ago

Ukraine is at 28.4%, that probably speaks how much reserve storage they have. After the war it will be important location for Azerbaijan gas transit (via Georgia and Black Sea). The pipeline will take some time to build, but it will make it more likely that they eventually join the EU and NATO as well.

WastingMyTime89 4y ago
- badpun 4y ago
  By your metric, the most "socially backward" country that joined the EU was the United Kingdom, as its the only one that actually exited so far. EDIT: regarding your edit - yep, Ukraine is currently a very backwards and crappy country, basically no better than Russia. While Russia is propped up by infinite monies flowing from the ground, Ukraine doesn't have it, so it's much more dilapidated. It's a small miracle that it didn't collapse economically and became Putin's client, just as Belarus had before. However, the one huge difference is that Ukraine doesn't have centuries of imperialistic and autocractic traditions that define Russia - so, it's population is not excited about subjugating other nations, and is ok with democracy as a form of government.
  - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
    Last time I checked the UK didn’t have to face widespread homophobic attacks conducted by groups advocating discrimination and violence, widespread gender-based violence, ineffective investigation of violence against journalists, impunity of police and issues relating to bringing torturers to justice. Because that was the reality in Ukraine before the war.
    - wizardofdos 4y ago
      Yeah maybe check again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LG... Considering the rest of your comment picturing Ukraine as some backwater (post)soviet hell hole: You've never been there. You've never even talked to someone from there.
  - impossiblefork 4y ago
    I don't think that has anything to do with it. The UK is not at all normal socially though. It's a very strange country, what its lack of respect for freedom of speech etcetera. It's been formalizing its authoritarian excesses and made them normal, and I get the impression that the British have gotten used to it and accept it as the way things should be. I can't read Hungarian or Polish, so maybe I don't see these things, but I don't feel that Poles or Hungarians have internalized a view that they can't say what they mean in the way that I feel that the Brits have, so while you may be intending some kind of irony in your remark, Britain may in fact be the most backwards country, socially, in Europe. The Brits seem to feel that punishment of people who are in the way, or inconvenient, or challenging the state is legitimate.
    - petesergeant 4y ago
      > Britain may in fact be the most backwards country, socially, in Europe* Probably time to go and touch some grass * apparently the op has gone back to edit this out of their original comment
      - impossiblefork 4y ago
        Yes, but surely freedom of speech, the right to protest etc. are much more basic than the stuff the Polish dislike? As long as the Poles and Hungarians aren't arresting people willy-nilly for protesting or writing things on the internet then they're not even in the same league as the Brits when it comes to social regression.
        petesergeant 4y ago
        > surely freedom of speech, the right to protest [are the fundamental determinants of social progression] a) No, that's pretty arbitrary. Every country has limits on freedom of speech and expression, and they all draw the line in different places. b) It is 100% not illegal to express an opinion that Charles isn't fit to be king, that the monarchy should be abolished and so on. No end of people saying just that on the radio, on the TV, in print, etc c) Protest remains legal; there was a large protest about the shooting of Chris Kaba this weekend d) Picketing funerals is considered a breach of the peace, and a public order offense To use point D to claim the UK is the most socially backward country in Europe is to have spent faaaar too long online.
- aivisol 4y ago
  > Poland and Hungary, two countries which should never have been allowed to join and are currently causing the union a lot of issues May I know why exactly these two countries should not be allowed to join EU? Because they cause issues? I mean, every country causes some issues. In the current context Germany and its former government lobbying for Russian gas causes issues of perhaps much larger scale. Tell me about corruption.
  - lm28469 4y ago
    Hungarian and Polish mores are far away from what the EU is standing for, the eastern you go the more conservatives the mores are. Nothing wrong with that in itself, sovereign nations can do and think whatever they wish inside their own borders. The problem is that you can't build unity when people have widely different opinions on such basic things, especially when you need unanimity to do anything. Joining the EU shouldn't only be about getting free money to rebuild your decrepit infrastructure and fund your local mafias. Lots of countries were accepted for purely strategic reason (ie. we prefer them with US than with Russia or China)
  - wikfwikf 4y ago
    It's not about corruption, it's about illiberalism.
  - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
    > Because they cause issues? I mean, every country causes some issues. Both Hungary and Poland have been consistently undermining the rule of law for years. Hungary has also started going after freedom of expression and minority rights and let’s not talk about the anti-gay laws for which the European Commission is suing them. The only reason they haven’t been stripped of their voting rights in the EU (the harshest sanction available) is that the unanimity of the other members is required and they shield each other. It’s a disgrace.
    - Tade0 4y ago
      Do note the timeline. Up to 2015 the governments of Poland were largely liberal. The current ruling party's conservative coalition from 2005 collapsed under its own weight in two years. You're judging the whole situation through the lens of the actions of a single political party, which came into power only because as liberal as liberals might be, they were sort of okay with having a sizeable disenfranchised minority in the country.
- Tade0 4y ago
  Have you ever been to any of the mentioned countries or spoken with people from there, or is your opinion based on what you hear and see as an outsider?
  - wikfwikf 4y ago
    I've been to Macedonia, Poland and Hungary and I agree with everything said and implied about those countries in the GP. It is not necessary to travel to Poland or Hungary to be aware that the populist governments of these countries have embraced conspiratorialism, anti-semitism, anti-ziganism, revisionism, homophobia, while openly disregarding liberal institutions such as the separation of church and state, independence of the judiciary, freedom of expression, pluralism. You can simply listen to what people from those countries who do embrace the liberal values associated with the EU project have said about their home countries.
    - Tade0 4y ago
      > You can simply listen to what people from those countries who do embrace the liberal values associated with the EU project have said about their home countries. Would you throw them under the bus just to keep the populists out of the Union? Also now that apparently Sweden is going to have a populist right-wing government, should they leave the EU? To be clear: I'm asking these questions to highlight the ridiculousness of looking at a whole country through the lens of their (temporary) government.
      - wikfwikf 4y ago
        The point is not that they should be thrown out of the EU, but that the EU is now much more reluctant to allow another country with similar social and political problems to join.
      - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
        If Sweden starts undermining the rule of law, they should definitely be excluded yes. Sadly the EU has no law allowing it to do that. Governments are elected. It’s not stupid to look at what a country is actually doing. Hungary even gave Fidesz a second term. Countries which cross the EU red lines should be excluded no question.
- adriancr 4y ago
  Why do you feel the need to share your hateful/bigoted and absolutely wrong opinions? There is indeed an intense propaganda campaign, but it's coming from Russia and unfortunately you seem to be repeating their talking points. Joining the EU improves and aligns countries, so what if they currently have issues, they will in time improve. We are stronger together.
  - Bayart 4y ago
    His opinion is perfectly reasonable. Even without the war, Ukraine is extremely far from EU accession standards. It was very nearly a failed state in the early 2010s. Nobody West of the Elbe river wants to deal with yet another ultra-conservative and corrupt state, at least certainly not while veto powers exist. > so what if they currently have issues, they will in time improve Or they'll take EU cohesion funds to fuel cronyism and populism as their neighbours did.
    - adriancr 4y ago
      This is why candidate status exists and goals for aligning... Why do you imagine joining would be instantaneous? > Ukraine is extremely far from EU accession standards. It was very nearly a failed state in the early 2010s. That's what long term russian ocupation, constant russian meddling after 89 and now invasion does... see moldova, belarus too.
      - type0 4y ago
        People not familiar with Ukraine just do not realize how much Kremlin influence fueled corruption and criminal activities in the countries. Transnistria (Russian occupied territory in Moldova) is literally a criminal state, had huge impact on the the southern parts, ORDLO became the same in recent years. To the north Belarus is a dictatorship, not exactly the honest trade partner.
- podviaznikov 4y ago
  this person said not nice things about 5 countries without any facts. Then added one fact in the edit. How is that constructive discussion. What is the point of comments like that?
- keewee7 4y ago
  There is so much wrong in this comment. >they refused to join the Istanbul Convention Ukraine has joined the Istanbul Convention. >because it violates their Christian values Outside Poland the social conservatism in Eastern Europe has very little to do with religion. Russia and Hungary are full of irreligious/atheist people with some rather controversial views on minorities and LGBT people.
  - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
    > There is so much wrong in this comment. I don’t think so, no. > Ukraine has joined the Istanbul Convention. I missed that they finally ratified it _the 18th of July 2022_. It’s not like they had a choice. It was a prerequisite to them getting candidate status for the EU adhesion. I’m glade this is starting to bring positive change to the country. > Outside Poland the social conservatism in Eastern Europe has very little to do with religion. The majority in the Rada refused to ratify in 2016 because they thought the use of the world gender and the way sexual orientation was presented went against the country Christian values. See this Euractiv article at the time for more details: https://www.euractiv.com/section/europe-s-east/news/ukraine-refuses-to-back-european-hate-crimes-law/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/europe-s-east/news/ukraine-...
- type0 4y ago
  Your nick nickname is telling me exactly what I need to know about reading such comments
seydor 4y ago
So from one dictator to another

by type0 4y ago

WastingMyTime89 4y ago

badpun 4y ago
By your metric, the most "socially backward" country that joined the EU was the United Kingdom, as its the only one that actually exited so far. EDIT: regarding your edit - yep, Ukraine is currently a very backwards and crappy country, basically no better than Russia. While Russia is propped up by infinite monies flowing from the ground, Ukraine doesn't have it, so it's much more dilapidated. It's a small miracle that it didn't collapse economically and became Putin's client, just as Belarus had before. However, the one huge difference is that Ukraine doesn't have centuries of imperialistic and autocractic traditions that define Russia - so, it's population is not excited about subjugating other nations, and is ok with democracy as a form of government.
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  Last time I checked the UK didn’t have to face widespread homophobic attacks conducted by groups advocating discrimination and violence, widespread gender-based violence, ineffective investigation of violence against journalists, impunity of police and issues relating to bringing torturers to justice. Because that was the reality in Ukraine before the war.
  - wizardofdos 4y ago
    Yeah maybe check again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LG... Considering the rest of your comment picturing Ukraine as some backwater (post)soviet hell hole: You've never been there. You've never even talked to someone from there.
- impossiblefork 4y ago
  I don't think that has anything to do with it. The UK is not at all normal socially though. It's a very strange country, what its lack of respect for freedom of speech etcetera. It's been formalizing its authoritarian excesses and made them normal, and I get the impression that the British have gotten used to it and accept it as the way things should be. I can't read Hungarian or Polish, so maybe I don't see these things, but I don't feel that Poles or Hungarians have internalized a view that they can't say what they mean in the way that I feel that the Brits have, so while you may be intending some kind of irony in your remark, Britain may in fact be the most backwards country, socially, in Europe. The Brits seem to feel that punishment of people who are in the way, or inconvenient, or challenging the state is legitimate.
  - petesergeant 4y ago
    > Britain may in fact be the most backwards country, socially, in Europe* Probably time to go and touch some grass * apparently the op has gone back to edit this out of their original comment
    - impossiblefork 4y ago
      Yes, but surely freedom of speech, the right to protest etc. are much more basic than the stuff the Polish dislike? As long as the Poles and Hungarians aren't arresting people willy-nilly for protesting or writing things on the internet then they're not even in the same league as the Brits when it comes to social regression.
      - petesergeant 4y ago
        > surely freedom of speech, the right to protest [are the fundamental determinants of social progression] a) No, that's pretty arbitrary. Every country has limits on freedom of speech and expression, and they all draw the line in different places. b) It is 100% not illegal to express an opinion that Charles isn't fit to be king, that the monarchy should be abolished and so on. No end of people saying just that on the radio, on the TV, in print, etc c) Protest remains legal; there was a large protest about the shooting of Chris Kaba this weekend d) Picketing funerals is considered a breach of the peace, and a public order offense To use point D to claim the UK is the most socially backward country in Europe is to have spent faaaar too long online.
aivisol 4y ago
> Poland and Hungary, two countries which should never have been allowed to join and are currently causing the union a lot of issues May I know why exactly these two countries should not be allowed to join EU? Because they cause issues? I mean, every country causes some issues. In the current context Germany and its former government lobbying for Russian gas causes issues of perhaps much larger scale. Tell me about corruption.
- lm28469 4y ago
  Hungarian and Polish mores are far away from what the EU is standing for, the eastern you go the more conservatives the mores are. Nothing wrong with that in itself, sovereign nations can do and think whatever they wish inside their own borders. The problem is that you can't build unity when people have widely different opinions on such basic things, especially when you need unanimity to do anything. Joining the EU shouldn't only be about getting free money to rebuild your decrepit infrastructure and fund your local mafias. Lots of countries were accepted for purely strategic reason (ie. we prefer them with US than with Russia or China)
- wikfwikf 4y ago
  It's not about corruption, it's about illiberalism.
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  > Because they cause issues? I mean, every country causes some issues. Both Hungary and Poland have been consistently undermining the rule of law for years. Hungary has also started going after freedom of expression and minority rights and let’s not talk about the anti-gay laws for which the European Commission is suing them. The only reason they haven’t been stripped of their voting rights in the EU (the harshest sanction available) is that the unanimity of the other members is required and they shield each other. It’s a disgrace.
  - Tade0 4y ago
    Do note the timeline. Up to 2015 the governments of Poland were largely liberal. The current ruling party's conservative coalition from 2005 collapsed under its own weight in two years. You're judging the whole situation through the lens of the actions of a single political party, which came into power only because as liberal as liberals might be, they were sort of okay with having a sizeable disenfranchised minority in the country.
Tade0 4y ago
Have you ever been to any of the mentioned countries or spoken with people from there, or is your opinion based on what you hear and see as an outsider?
- wikfwikf 4y ago
  I've been to Macedonia, Poland and Hungary and I agree with everything said and implied about those countries in the GP. It is not necessary to travel to Poland or Hungary to be aware that the populist governments of these countries have embraced conspiratorialism, anti-semitism, anti-ziganism, revisionism, homophobia, while openly disregarding liberal institutions such as the separation of church and state, independence of the judiciary, freedom of expression, pluralism. You can simply listen to what people from those countries who do embrace the liberal values associated with the EU project have said about their home countries.
  - Tade0 4y ago
    > You can simply listen to what people from those countries who do embrace the liberal values associated with the EU project have said about their home countries. Would you throw them under the bus just to keep the populists out of the Union? Also now that apparently Sweden is going to have a populist right-wing government, should they leave the EU? To be clear: I'm asking these questions to highlight the ridiculousness of looking at a whole country through the lens of their (temporary) government.
    - wikfwikf 4y ago
      The point is not that they should be thrown out of the EU, but that the EU is now much more reluctant to allow another country with similar social and political problems to join.
    - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
      If Sweden starts undermining the rule of law, they should definitely be excluded yes. Sadly the EU has no law allowing it to do that. Governments are elected. It’s not stupid to look at what a country is actually doing. Hungary even gave Fidesz a second term. Countries which cross the EU red lines should be excluded no question.
adriancr 4y ago
Why do you feel the need to share your hateful/bigoted and absolutely wrong opinions? There is indeed an intense propaganda campaign, but it's coming from Russia and unfortunately you seem to be repeating their talking points. Joining the EU improves and aligns countries, so what if they currently have issues, they will in time improve. We are stronger together.
- Bayart 4y ago
  His opinion is perfectly reasonable. Even without the war, Ukraine is extremely far from EU accession standards. It was very nearly a failed state in the early 2010s. Nobody West of the Elbe river wants to deal with yet another ultra-conservative and corrupt state, at least certainly not while veto powers exist. > so what if they currently have issues, they will in time improve Or they'll take EU cohesion funds to fuel cronyism and populism as their neighbours did.
  - adriancr 4y ago
    This is why candidate status exists and goals for aligning... Why do you imagine joining would be instantaneous? > Ukraine is extremely far from EU accession standards. It was very nearly a failed state in the early 2010s. That's what long term russian ocupation, constant russian meddling after 89 and now invasion does... see moldova, belarus too.
    - type0 4y ago
      People not familiar with Ukraine just do not realize how much Kremlin influence fueled corruption and criminal activities in the countries. Transnistria (Russian occupied territory in Moldova) is literally a criminal state, had huge impact on the the southern parts, ORDLO became the same in recent years. To the north Belarus is a dictatorship, not exactly the honest trade partner.
podviaznikov 4y ago
this person said not nice things about 5 countries without any facts. Then added one fact in the edit. How is that constructive discussion. What is the point of comments like that?
keewee7 4y ago
There is so much wrong in this comment. >they refused to join the Istanbul Convention Ukraine has joined the Istanbul Convention. >because it violates their Christian values Outside Poland the social conservatism in Eastern Europe has very little to do with religion. Russia and Hungary are full of irreligious/atheist people with some rather controversial views on minorities and LGBT people.
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  > There is so much wrong in this comment. I don’t think so, no. > Ukraine has joined the Istanbul Convention. I missed that they finally ratified it _the 18th of July 2022_. It’s not like they had a choice. It was a prerequisite to them getting candidate status for the EU adhesion. I’m glade this is starting to bring positive change to the country. > Outside Poland the social conservatism in Eastern Europe has very little to do with religion. The majority in the Rada refused to ratify in 2016 because they thought the use of the world gender and the way sexual orientation was presented went against the country Christian values. See this Euractiv article at the time for more details: https://www.euractiv.com/section/europe-s-east/news/ukraine-refuses-to-back-european-hate-crimes-law/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/europe-s-east/news/ukraine-...
type0 4y ago
Your nick nickname is telling me exactly what I need to know about reading such comments

seydor 4y ago

So from one dictator to another