5 ms·

A Quirk of English Grammar That Died Out After Only 200 Years

eesmith 4y ago
TL;DR - my first idea was "scarecrow". Etymonline confirmed it fit the pattern, and linked to several other examples. I searched for '(v.) (n.)' and read through the first 340 examples to find ones which fit the pattern. Nearly all are from the given time period. One notable exception is "sawbones", for surgeon, from Dickens in 1837. Another intriguing one is "Kellogg", from an old term for butcher ("kill hog") dating to the 1200s. What about scarecrow? "1550s, from scare (v.) + crow (n.). Earliest reference is to a person employed to scare birds." - https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=scarecrow https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=scarecrow . That's in the given period (1550 to 1700). Etymonline adds "For the formation, compare daredevil", at https://www.etymonline.com/word/daredevil?ref=etymonline_crossreference https://www.etymonline.com/word/daredevil?ref=etymonline_cro... , which says: > For the formation, compare scarecrow, killjoy, dreadnought, pickpocket (n.), cut-throat, also fear-babe a 16c. word for "something that frightens children;" kill-devil "bad rum," sell-soul "one who sells his soul" (1670s). Dreadnought, according to https://www.etymonline.com/word/dreadnought?ref=etymonline_crossreference https://www.etymonline.com/word/dreadnought?ref=etymonline_c... , "is mentioned as the name of a ship in the Royal Navy as early as c. 1596", which is also in the same time frame. Killjoy is attested from 1776 (see https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=killjoy https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=killjoy ) so a bit outside that range, though it comes from earlier use as "Kill formerly was used with other stems (for example kill-courtesy "boorish person," kill-cow "bully, big man," etc.; also compare Kellogg)." "Kellogg" is from "kill-hog"(!), "attested from late 13c. (Gilbert Kelehog), literally "kill hog," a name for a butcher (compare kill-buck, a medieval surname, also noted as a term of contempt for a butcher)" - https://www.etymonline.com/word/Kellogg?ref=etymonline_crossreference https://www.etymonline.com/word/Kellogg?ref=etymonline_cross... . That's earlier than the given range. I did a search for "(v.) (n.)" to find only entries with a verb and a noun, then read through them to find examples. There's "tosspot", "heavy drinker," 1560s, from toss (v.) + pot (n.1)." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/tosspot#etymonline_v_49568 https://www.etymonline.com/word/tosspot#etymonline_v_49568 Oh! What about "sawbones" described as '"surgeon," 1837 (Dickens), slang, from verbal phrase; see saw (v.) + bone (n.)" - https://www.etymonline.com/word/sawbones#etymonline_v_37669 https://www.etymonline.com/word/sawbones#etymonline_v_37669 . rotgut, described as "also rot-gut, "unwholesome liquor; cheap, adulterated whiskey," 1630s, from rot (v.) + gut (n.)" - https://www.etymonline.com/word/rotgut#etymonline_v_43891 https://www.etymonline.com/word/rotgut#etymonline_v_43891 . breakwater, described as ""any structure serving to break the force of waves and protect a harbor or shore," 1721, from break (v.) + water (n.1)." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/breakwater#etymonline_v_27394 https://www.etymonline.com/word/breakwater#etymonline_v_2739... picklock, described as "1550s, "person who picks locks;" 1590s, "instrument for picking and opening a lock;" from pick (v.) + lock (n.1)." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/picklock#etymonline_v_46295 https://www.etymonline.com/word/picklock#etymonline_v_46295 clingstone, described as ""fruit (generally a peach) having the pulp adhering firmly to the stone," 1722, from cling (v.) + stone (n.). Also as an adjective." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/clingstone#etymonline_v_47730 https://www.etymonline.com/word/clingstone#etymonline_v_4773... . catchpenny, described as ""something of little value but externally attractive and made to sell quickly," 1760, from catch (v.) + penny (n.). Also as an adjective." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/catchpenny#etymonline_v_53260 https://www.etymonline.com/word/catchpenny#etymonline_v_5326... marplot, described as "one who by officious interference defeats a design," 1708, the name of a character in Susanna Centlivre's comedy "The busie body;" from mar (v.) + plot (n.)." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/marplot#etymonline_v_54198 https://www.etymonline.com/word/marplot#etymonline_v_54198 The already-mentioned "spendthrift" "Replaced earlier scattergood (1570s) and spend-all (1550s)." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/spendthrift#etymonline_v_25691 https://www.etymonline.com/word/spendthrift#etymonline_v_256... . cut-throat, defined as "murderer, ruffian, assassin," 1530s, from cut (v.) + throat(n.)." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/cut-throat#etymonline_v_29233 https://www.etymonline.com/word/cut-throat#etymonline_v_2923... turncoat, "1550s, from turn (v.) + coat (n.). The image is of one who attempts to hide the badge of his party or leader." - turncoat (n.) stopgap, "also stop-gap, 1680s, from stop (v.) + gap (n.); the notion probably being of something that plugs a leak, but it may be in part from gap (n.) in a specific military sense "opening or breach in defenses by which attack may be made" (1540s)." - stopgap (n.) Indeed, nearly all of these are from that ~200 year time period!
- eesmith 4y ago
  Another new(ish) one - "clawback". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clawback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clawback - "The term clawback or claw back refers to any money or benefits that have been given out, but are required to be returned (clawed back) due to special circumstances or events, such as the monies having been received as the result of a financial crime, or where there is a clawback provision in the executive compensation contract." Etymonline at https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=clawback https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=clawback says: > To claw back "regain by great effort" is from 1953; as a noun, an act of this, from 1969. Earlier clawback (n.) meant "one who fawns on another, a sycophant" (1540s), from phrase claw the back "flatter, curry favor" (late 14c.); compare the more recent expression scratch (someone's) back in a similar sense. However, that's used as verb. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/claw%20back https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/claw%20back defines the noun in two forms: > a : the recovery of tax allowances by additional taxation Next year sees the resumption of a 3% clawback that penalizes most upper-bracket taxpayers.— William Baldwin > b : the reclaiming of money or benefits under special circumstances stipulated in a contract —usually used before another noun Google n-gram shows about a 200-fold increase in use starting around 1965.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - eesmith 4y ago
    Two more I thought of, both again in the same time period: "lockjaw" - "1786, earlier locked-jaw (1765), popular name for trismus, also applied to tetanus, from lock (v.) + jaw (n.)." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/lock-jaw https://www.etymonline.com/word/lock-jaw "spitfire" - "1610s, "a cannon," from spit (v.) + fire (n.); c. 1600 as an adjective. Meaning "irascible, passionate person" is from 1670s. Replaced earlier shitfire (similar formation in Florentine cacafuoco)." - https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=spitfire https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=spitfire "shitfire" is attested by 1598 - https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/384219/what-is-the-origin-of-the-american-expression-s-fire https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/384219/what-is-t...
trinovantes 4y ago
Modern day verb-noun compound: ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶i̶n̶e̶ ̶c̶r̶y̶p̶t̶o̶ ̶=̶>̶ ̶c̶r̶y̶p̶t̶o̶m̶i̶n̶e̶r̶ Although I don't think any formal dictionary has accepted this term yet edit: It's surprising hard to find a modern counterexample because verb-noun construction just feels off e.g. minecrypto
- adhesive_wombat 4y ago
  That's not exocentric (a cryptominer is a kind of miner) and it's noun-verb, not verb-noun. Minecrypto would be the equivalent to the construction in the post.
- ttctciyf 4y ago
  Though this is the normal construction: noun + verb + "-er", like the "firefighter" and "naysayer" examples in the thread, whereas the tweet's claim is that "exocentric" coinages with form: verb + noun, such as "pickpocket" and "spendthrift" where the verb comes first and there's no "-er", date from 1550 to 1700 almost exclusively. It feels like there should be a modern counterexample, but I admit I can't recall any. "Runmouth" would be a near miss, but it apparently refers to a personal quality rather than a person. Perhaps a resurgence is possible with words like "baitclick" and "postshit"?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - trinovantes 4y ago
    Ah, I missed the comment about excluding the suffix and mixed up the order
  - adhesive_wombat 4y ago
    > Perhaps a resurgence is possible with words like "baitclick" and "postshit"? Perhaps "fixbug" and "closeissue" for software types and "cleansignal" for a front-end engineer.
- sterlind 4y ago
  that doesn't fit the pattern. this was specifically VO-ordered compounds without any -er, like spend+thrift or scoff+law.
sterlind 4y ago
ahah! I found a counterexample! "killjoy." VO order, no -er, first documented usage 1776 apparently.
akolbe 4y ago
"Kick-ass" (in use since 1970 according to Merriam) is a similar construction, though used as an adjective and not a noun. "Telltale" and "taleteller" are a case of both forms existing in parallel: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/taleteller https://www.dictionary.com/browse/taleteller Verb-noun constructions like this also exist in French; e.g. a "porte-avions" is an aircraft carrier.
derbOac 4y ago
Not an expert, but I remember a documentary where they were explaining that time period in question corresponded to big changes in English accent and language. For example, they were arguing that most English before and going into that time period was pronounced with something similar to a Boston or Irish accent; modern British accents are newer and come from the middle to end of that period. What was happening then to give rise to all this is really interesting to me but I have no idea what it would be. I don't know enough about the history of that region at that time to say.
theandrewbailey 4y ago
Unrolled: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1569366666844192769.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1569366666844192769.html
__derek__ 4y ago
Two modern examples that still fit the theme: 'suck-up' and 'kiss-ass'.
- Someone 4y ago
  Those aren’t nouns, are they? It is that a gap in my English?
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    "The kiss-ass raised his hand in class." "The suck-up couldn't stop giving praise." It looks like they operate like nouns to me.
  - __derek__ 4y ago
    They're nouns in American English, at least.

TL;DR - my first idea was "scarecrow". Etymonline confirmed it fit the pattern, and linked to several other examples. I searched for '(v.) (n.)' and read through the first 340 examples to find ones which fit the pattern. Nearly all are from the given time period. One notable exception is "sawbones", for surgeon, from Dickens in 1837. Another intriguing one is "Kellogg", from an old term for butcher ("kill hog") dating to the 1200s. What about scarecrow? "1550s, from scare (v.) + crow (n.). Earliest reference is to a person employed to scare birds." - https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=scarecrow https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=scarecrow . That's in the given period (1550 to 1700). Etymonline adds "For the formation, compare daredevil", at https://www.etymonline.com/word/daredevil?ref=etymonline_crossreference https://www.etymonline.com/word/daredevil?ref=etymonline_cro... , which says: > For the formation, compare scarecrow, killjoy, dreadnought, pickpocket (n.), cut-throat, also fear-babe a 16c. word for "something that frightens children;" kill-devil "bad rum," sell-soul "one who sells his soul" (1670s). Dreadnought, according to https://www.etymonline.com/word/dreadnought?ref=etymonline_crossreference https://www.etymonline.com/word/dreadnought?ref=etymonline_c... , "is mentioned as the name of a ship in the Royal Navy as early as c. 1596", which is also in the same time frame. Killjoy is attested from 1776 (see https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=killjoy https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=killjoy ) so a bit outside that range, though it comes from earlier use as "Kill formerly was used with other stems (for example kill-courtesy "boorish person," kill-cow "bully, big man," etc.; also compare Kellogg)." "Kellogg" is from "kill-hog"(!), "attested from late 13c. (Gilbert Kelehog), literally "kill hog," a name for a butcher (compare kill-buck, a medieval surname, also noted as a term of contempt for a butcher)" - https://www.etymonline.com/word/Kellogg?ref=etymonline_crossreference https://www.etymonline.com/word/Kellogg?ref=etymonline_cross... . That's earlier than the given range. I did a search for "(v.) (n.)" to find only entries with a verb and a noun, then read through them to find examples. There's "tosspot", "heavy drinker," 1560s, from toss (v.) + pot (n.1)." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/tosspot#etymonline_v_49568 https://www.etymonline.com/word/tosspot#etymonline_v_49568 Oh! What about "sawbones" described as '"surgeon," 1837 (Dickens), slang, from verbal phrase; see saw (v.) + bone (n.)" - https://www.etymonline.com/word/sawbones#etymonline_v_37669 https://www.etymonline.com/word/sawbones#etymonline_v_37669 . rotgut, described as "also rot-gut, "unwholesome liquor; cheap, adulterated whiskey," 1630s, from rot (v.) + gut (n.)" - https://www.etymonline.com/word/rotgut#etymonline_v_43891 https://www.etymonline.com/word/rotgut#etymonline_v_43891 . breakwater, described as ""any structure serving to break the force of waves and protect a harbor or shore," 1721, from break (v.) + water (n.1)." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/breakwater#etymonline_v_27394 https://www.etymonline.com/word/breakwater#etymonline_v_2739... picklock, described as "1550s, "person who picks locks;" 1590s, "instrument for picking and opening a lock;" from pick (v.) + lock (n.1)." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/picklock#etymonline_v_46295 https://www.etymonline.com/word/picklock#etymonline_v_46295 clingstone, described as ""fruit (generally a peach) having the pulp adhering firmly to the stone," 1722, from cling (v.) + stone (n.). Also as an adjective." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/clingstone#etymonline_v_47730 https://www.etymonline.com/word/clingstone#etymonline_v_4773... . catchpenny, described as ""something of little value but externally attractive and made to sell quickly," 1760, from catch (v.) + penny (n.). Also as an adjective." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/catchpenny#etymonline_v_53260 https://www.etymonline.com/word/catchpenny#etymonline_v_5326... marplot, described as "one who by officious interference defeats a design," 1708, the name of a character in Susanna Centlivre's comedy "The busie body;" from mar (v.) + plot (n.)." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/marplot#etymonline_v_54198 https://www.etymonline.com/word/marplot#etymonline_v_54198 The already-mentioned "spendthrift" "Replaced earlier scattergood (1570s) and spend-all (1550s)." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/spendthrift#etymonline_v_25691 https://www.etymonline.com/word/spendthrift#etymonline_v_256... . cut-throat, defined as "murderer, ruffian, assassin," 1530s, from cut (v.) + throat(n.)." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/cut-throat#etymonline_v_29233 https://www.etymonline.com/word/cut-throat#etymonline_v_2923... turncoat, "1550s, from turn (v.) + coat (n.). The image is of one who attempts to hide the badge of his party or leader." - turncoat (n.) stopgap, "also stop-gap, 1680s, from stop (v.) + gap (n.); the notion probably being of something that plugs a leak, but it may be in part from gap (n.) in a specific military sense "opening or breach in defenses by which attack may be made" (1540s)." - stopgap (n.) Indeed, nearly all of these are from that ~200 year time period!

eesmith 4y ago
Another new(ish) one - "clawback". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clawback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clawback - "The term clawback or claw back refers to any money or benefits that have been given out, but are required to be returned (clawed back) due to special circumstances or events, such as the monies having been received as the result of a financial crime, or where there is a clawback provision in the executive compensation contract." Etymonline at https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=clawback https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=clawback says: > To claw back "regain by great effort" is from 1953; as a noun, an act of this, from 1969. Earlier clawback (n.) meant "one who fawns on another, a sycophant" (1540s), from phrase claw the back "flatter, curry favor" (late 14c.); compare the more recent expression scratch (someone's) back in a similar sense. However, that's used as verb. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/claw%20back https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/claw%20back defines the noun in two forms: > a : the recovery of tax allowances by additional taxation Next year sees the resumption of a 3% clawback that penalizes most upper-bracket taxpayers.— William Baldwin > b : the reclaiming of money or benefits under special circumstances stipulated in a contract —usually used before another noun Google n-gram shows about a 200-fold increase in use starting around 1965.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- eesmith 4y ago
  Two more I thought of, both again in the same time period: "lockjaw" - "1786, earlier locked-jaw (1765), popular name for trismus, also applied to tetanus, from lock (v.) + jaw (n.)." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/lock-jaw https://www.etymonline.com/word/lock-jaw "spitfire" - "1610s, "a cannon," from spit (v.) + fire (n.); c. 1600 as an adjective. Meaning "irascible, passionate person" is from 1670s. Replaced earlier shitfire (similar formation in Florentine cacafuoco)." - https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=spitfire https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=spitfire "shitfire" is attested by 1598 - https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/384219/what-is-the-origin-of-the-american-expression-s-fire https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/384219/what-is-t...

trinovantes 4y ago

Modern day verb-noun compound: ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶i̶n̶e̶ ̶c̶r̶y̶p̶t̶o̶ ̶=̶>̶ ̶c̶r̶y̶p̶t̶o̶m̶i̶n̶e̶r̶ Although I don't think any formal dictionary has accepted this term yet edit: It's surprising hard to find a modern counterexample because verb-noun construction just feels off e.g. minecrypto

adhesive_wombat 4y ago
That's not exocentric (a cryptominer is a kind of miner) and it's noun-verb, not verb-noun. Minecrypto would be the equivalent to the construction in the post.
ttctciyf 4y ago
Though this is the normal construction: noun + verb + "-er", like the "firefighter" and "naysayer" examples in the thread, whereas the tweet's claim is that "exocentric" coinages with form: verb + noun, such as "pickpocket" and "spendthrift" where the verb comes first and there's no "-er", date from 1550 to 1700 almost exclusively. It feels like there should be a modern counterexample, but I admit I can't recall any. "Runmouth" would be a near miss, but it apparently refers to a personal quality rather than a person. Perhaps a resurgence is possible with words like "baitclick" and "postshit"?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- trinovantes 4y ago
  Ah, I missed the comment about excluding the suffix and mixed up the order
- adhesive_wombat 4y ago
  > Perhaps a resurgence is possible with words like "baitclick" and "postshit"? Perhaps "fixbug" and "closeissue" for software types and "cleansignal" for a front-end engineer.
sterlind 4y ago
that doesn't fit the pattern. this was specifically VO-ordered compounds without any -er, like spend+thrift or scoff+law.

sterlind 4y ago

ahah! I found a counterexample! "killjoy." VO order, no -er, first documented usage 1776 apparently.

akolbe 4y ago

"Kick-ass" (in use since 1970 according to Merriam) is a similar construction, though used as an adjective and not a noun. "Telltale" and "taleteller" are a case of both forms existing in parallel: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/taleteller https://www.dictionary.com/browse/taleteller Verb-noun constructions like this also exist in French; e.g. a "porte-avions" is an aircraft carrier.

derbOac 4y ago

Not an expert, but I remember a documentary where they were explaining that time period in question corresponded to big changes in English accent and language. For example, they were arguing that most English before and going into that time period was pronounced with something similar to a Boston or Irish accent; modern British accents are newer and come from the middle to end of that period. What was happening then to give rise to all this is really interesting to me but I have no idea what it would be. I don't know enough about the history of that region at that time to say.

theandrewbailey 4y ago

Unrolled: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1569366666844192769.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1569366666844192769.html

__derek__ 4y ago

Two modern examples that still fit the theme: 'suck-up' and 'kiss-ass'.

Someone 4y ago
Those aren’t nouns, are they? It is that a gap in my English?
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  "The kiss-ass raised his hand in class." "The suck-up couldn't stop giving praise." It looks like they operate like nouns to me.
- __derek__ 4y ago
  They're nouns in American English, at least.