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Agreed. Not only that, but there’s also a debate among historians about “presentism”—judging the past by present standards rather than by the standards of the t

Agreed. Not only that, but there’s also a debate among historians about “presentism”—judging the past by present standards rather than by the standards of the time. For example, most (so-called) antiracists are presentists, which is why they advocate for tearing down statues of Lincoln and the like—people who were very progressive for their day, but who fell short of the standards of today (as though the people who are antiracist today would be as strident as they are if they grew up in the culture of Lincoln’s time).

tootie 4y ago
I don't follow. We live in the present so presentism seems pretty practical. Besides, this isn't ancient history. Civil Rights was only like 60 years ago. Strom Thurmond served in Congress this century. Is there any point in history that it would be acceptable to have a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest on public land?
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  > We live in the present so presentism seems pretty practical. Well, I live now. I’m very liberal, but am I more noble for doing fuck-all about civil rights (apart from voting) than the abolitionists who literally died to end slavery? Does the woke college student really deserve a statue more than MLK? > Besides, this isn't ancient history. Granted, but I don’t see the relevance. You should still judge people of the civil rights era according to the standards of their time. > Is there any point in history that it would be acceptable to have a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest on public land? I’m not very well-versed in Forrest, but he seems like he wasn’t progressive for his time, so the answer would be “no” irrespective of presentism.
  - tootie 4y ago
    I mean you are moving the goal posts into the parking lot right now. The initial question was whether or not there was value in taking incremental steps to combat racism and you're saying we shouldn't build statues to the keyboard warriors of Twitter. Nobody ever suggested that. And while we can absolutely evaluate historical figures on their cultural context that doesn't mean we should lionize them on public property. Forrest was the Confederate general who founded the KKK and was honored with a ridiculous statue on public property in Nashville.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      I'm not moving goalposts, I think you've completely misunderstood the argument. Specifically, my point isn't that we shouldn't build statues for keyboard warriors, it's that the logic of presentism defies sensibility--presentists would say that woke college students are more moral because they adhere to the moral standards of the present than the imperfect-by-present-standards abolitionists of yesteryear. > Nobody ever suggested that. This is exactly what presentists believe. > And while we can absolutely evaluate historical figures on their cultural context that doesn't mean we should lionize them on public property. Well, if you believe that admirable people should be lionized on public property (about which presentism doesn't have an opinion), and if you believe that history has admirable figures (which presentism effectively denies), then it makes sense that you would lionize those figures on public property. > Forrest was the Confederate general who founded the KKK and was honored with a ridiculous statue on public property in Nashville. Right, but as he fails the moral standards of his own day as well as the present, he oughtn't be venerated either way.
      - tootie 4y ago
        "presentists would say that woke college students are more moral because they adhere to the moral standards of the present than the imperfect-by-present-standards abolitionists of yesteryear." No they don't. Idk who even talks about this kind of thing. Certainly nobody in office that I've ever seen. I'm sure you could find a few people who think this, but it's nowhere near the state of the actual public debate. "Right, but as he fails the moral standards of his own day as well as the present, he oughtn't be venerated either way." Right, this is currently a position held by liberals and strongly opposed by a lot of conservatives who want to preserve monuments to things that were despicable even 150 years ago. Mind you, the infamous Forrest statue was erected in 1998, not 1870! It's not just a matter of reevaluating in present day, there are people evaluating the Confederacy in present day terms and still calling it great and getting support from elected officials. Those are the people in in power who are sending the signal that explicit racism is still very much prevalent in the halls of power and require explicit counteractions like DEI.
        4y ago

tootie 4y ago

I don't follow. We live in the present so presentism seems pretty practical. Besides, this isn't ancient history. Civil Rights was only like 60 years ago. Strom Thurmond served in Congress this century. Is there any point in history that it would be acceptable to have a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest on public land?

throwaway894345 4y ago
> We live in the present so presentism seems pretty practical. Well, I live now. I’m very liberal, but am I more noble for doing fuck-all about civil rights (apart from voting) than the abolitionists who literally died to end slavery? Does the woke college student really deserve a statue more than MLK? > Besides, this isn't ancient history. Granted, but I don’t see the relevance. You should still judge people of the civil rights era according to the standards of their time. > Is there any point in history that it would be acceptable to have a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest on public land? I’m not very well-versed in Forrest, but he seems like he wasn’t progressive for his time, so the answer would be “no” irrespective of presentism.
- tootie 4y ago
  I mean you are moving the goal posts into the parking lot right now. The initial question was whether or not there was value in taking incremental steps to combat racism and you're saying we shouldn't build statues to the keyboard warriors of Twitter. Nobody ever suggested that. And while we can absolutely evaluate historical figures on their cultural context that doesn't mean we should lionize them on public property. Forrest was the Confederate general who founded the KKK and was honored with a ridiculous statue on public property in Nashville.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    I'm not moving goalposts, I think you've completely misunderstood the argument. Specifically, my point isn't that we shouldn't build statues for keyboard warriors, it's that the logic of presentism defies sensibility--presentists would say that woke college students are more moral because they adhere to the moral standards of the present than the imperfect-by-present-standards abolitionists of yesteryear. > Nobody ever suggested that. This is exactly what presentists believe. > And while we can absolutely evaluate historical figures on their cultural context that doesn't mean we should lionize them on public property. Well, if you believe that admirable people should be lionized on public property (about which presentism doesn't have an opinion), and if you believe that history has admirable figures (which presentism effectively denies), then it makes sense that you would lionize those figures on public property. > Forrest was the Confederate general who founded the KKK and was honored with a ridiculous statue on public property in Nashville. Right, but as he fails the moral standards of his own day as well as the present, he oughtn't be venerated either way.
    - tootie 4y ago
      "presentists would say that woke college students are more moral because they adhere to the moral standards of the present than the imperfect-by-present-standards abolitionists of yesteryear." No they don't. Idk who even talks about this kind of thing. Certainly nobody in office that I've ever seen. I'm sure you could find a few people who think this, but it's nowhere near the state of the actual public debate. "Right, but as he fails the moral standards of his own day as well as the present, he oughtn't be venerated either way." Right, this is currently a position held by liberals and strongly opposed by a lot of conservatives who want to preserve monuments to things that were despicable even 150 years ago. Mind you, the infamous Forrest statue was erected in 1998, not 1870! It's not just a matter of reevaluating in present day, there are people evaluating the Confederacy in present day terms and still calling it great and getting support from elected officials. Those are the people in in power who are sending the signal that explicit racism is still very much prevalent in the halls of power and require explicit counteractions like DEI.
      - 4y ago