5 ms·

It depends what you are building. Make a simple CRUD, sure any code-monkey can eventually build one from ground-up even. Move on to something more arcane and co

by tekkk 4y ago

It depends what you are building. Make a simple CRUD, sure any code-monkey can eventually build one from ground-up even. Move on to something more arcane and complicated, you really need a specialist with eye towards simplicity and maintainability rather than having bunch mediocre coders building some buggy monstrosity. That's how you end up with these bloated and inefficient systems that go millions over-budget. Single virtuoso coder - or just a coder who just actually puts the effort to keep the mess contained - can be the glue that keeps the project actually usable and who in-turn educates others to be better programmers. They may not produce +50% more code than their less senior peers but the code that's in total written will be of much higher quality. That's how I see it. It's like having a great musician in a band - everyone will strive to play better to meet their standard.

JimmieMcnulty 4y ago
That's not really virtuoso, that's just what you get a while (5-10 years, sometimes less) after starting your coding career. My larger point is that they're not worth as much as the coder who can also project manage/lead/mentor/etc, because the latter coder can both be a "virtuoso" (or like 95% of one) and also make the people around them better, and that's substantially more valuable. The thing folks who "just want to code" don't realize is that their "value above replacement" is never going to be high enough to justify the desired pay increase over time that most folks expect as they advance in their careers. That said, it's probably more fine if you want to be 10+ years into your career and accept the pay comparable to those more junior coders. Some people do get this by negotiating fewer hours, for example. And not for nothing, but leading/mentoring is highly achievable for any "virtuoso" coder; not wanting to help others and pitch in on design is a personal choice, as most "virtuoso" coders would probably be great at both if they put in the effort. It just means holding meetings more and coding less, which is outside of their comfort zone and therefore "scary" in some sense. They could be doing so many other great things, I wish they would please try to get over their insecurities and fears! I will help, as that's my job because I did get over those things and transition into this role from a coding role.
- tekkk 4y ago
  Well I would disagree that anyone would get to that level. Some folk just never seem to learn how to properly build and maintain a software project. Sure though I agree that any virtuoso coder should branch out to mentoring and architecting as that's basically expected of them having the experience. Yet I don't know hour-wise how much they'd have to put in having meetings if they already kinda know how to build the system. I don't think that would necessarily be scary to them, just annoying if they had to be constantly distracted by having to mull over details that aren't that important. To me a virtuoso is the consultant who knows how to build all parts of the project who is not there to lead the team but will help out anyone in the project - and will take care of it being built properly.
  - JimmieMcnulty 4y ago
    … that’s literally what all the meetings are for, to take care of building the project properly, because you know how to build all of the parts of the product. There is no level of skill at which anyone will ever just be able to do an entire project on their own; no matter how good you are, you’re always going to be better with others.
Matthias247 4y ago
+1. Coding is such a wide field - and while there are some areas that one can probably master in a short time (CRUD apps as you mention, which are rather repetitive), there's also a lot of other areas where even people with decades of experience can still learn. I've worked a lot on networking stacks, protocols and servers, and it found to be extremely specialized. It's unlikely one can an engineer with 5 years of "generic coding experience" which would be immediately productive in the field. I assume the same goes for implementing operating systems, databases, compilers (like LLVM), graphics engines, etc. Sure, a junior engineer that is new to the field could probably also implement something - but it would likely end up less reliable and less extensible and maintainable than if someone who has worked on a similar system before. At that level it's however also all a bit of a mix between coding/implementation and design. While there's no real "system design" since the piece of software might just be a single component, there are still the usual design questions involved like "how does this component fit into the environment, like the APIs the operating system offers", "how will it be used", "what operational requirements need to be fulfilled", and "how can it be made to be as efficient as possible". Having a good amount of experience on how components will work together will be very helpful.

by tekkk 4y ago

JimmieMcnulty 4y ago

That's not really virtuoso, that's just what you get a while (5-10 years, sometimes less) after starting your coding career. My larger point is that they're not worth as much as the coder who can also project manage/lead/mentor/etc, because the latter coder can both be a "virtuoso" (or like 95% of one) and also make the people around them better, and that's substantially more valuable. The thing folks who "just want to code" don't realize is that their "value above replacement" is never going to be high enough to justify the desired pay increase over time that most folks expect as they advance in their careers. That said, it's probably more fine if you want to be 10+ years into your career and accept the pay comparable to those more junior coders. Some people do get this by negotiating fewer hours, for example. And not for nothing, but leading/mentoring is highly achievable for any "virtuoso" coder; not wanting to help others and pitch in on design is a personal choice, as most "virtuoso" coders would probably be great at both if they put in the effort. It just means holding meetings more and coding less, which is outside of their comfort zone and therefore "scary" in some sense. They could be doing so many other great things, I wish they would please try to get over their insecurities and fears! I will help, as that's my job because I did get over those things and transition into this role from a coding role.

tekkk 4y ago
Well I would disagree that anyone would get to that level. Some folk just never seem to learn how to properly build and maintain a software project. Sure though I agree that any virtuoso coder should branch out to mentoring and architecting as that's basically expected of them having the experience. Yet I don't know hour-wise how much they'd have to put in having meetings if they already kinda know how to build the system. I don't think that would necessarily be scary to them, just annoying if they had to be constantly distracted by having to mull over details that aren't that important. To me a virtuoso is the consultant who knows how to build all parts of the project who is not there to lead the team but will help out anyone in the project - and will take care of it being built properly.
- JimmieMcnulty 4y ago
  … that’s literally what all the meetings are for, to take care of building the project properly, because you know how to build all of the parts of the product. There is no level of skill at which anyone will ever just be able to do an entire project on their own; no matter how good you are, you’re always going to be better with others.

Matthias247 4y ago

+1. Coding is such a wide field - and while there are some areas that one can probably master in a short time (CRUD apps as you mention, which are rather repetitive), there's also a lot of other areas where even people with decades of experience can still learn. I've worked a lot on networking stacks, protocols and servers, and it found to be extremely specialized. It's unlikely one can an engineer with 5 years of "generic coding experience" which would be immediately productive in the field. I assume the same goes for implementing operating systems, databases, compilers (like LLVM), graphics engines, etc. Sure, a junior engineer that is new to the field could probably also implement something - but it would likely end up less reliable and less extensible and maintainable than if someone who has worked on a similar system before. At that level it's however also all a bit of a mix between coding/implementation and design. While there's no real "system design" since the piece of software might just be a single component, there are still the usual design questions involved like "how does this component fit into the environment, like the APIs the operating system offers", "how will it be used", "what operational requirements need to be fulfilled", and "how can it be made to be as efficient as possible". Having a good amount of experience on how components will work together will be very helpful.