7 ms·

"immune system overreacting" What do you think of homeopathy? It's supposed to work best for infectious diseases at controlling symptoms: cutting back an overr

"immune system overreacting" What do you think of homeopathy? It's supposed to work best for infectious diseases at controlling symptoms: cutting back an overreaction. The argument homeopaths make is that bacteria would otherwise populate within an overreacted tissue, leading to further overreaction (the body creates its own symptoms: dis-ease) and they also say the body is full of bacteria/pathogens anyhow yet homeostasis can still be found.

prodigal_erik 15y ago
There's no reason to think homeopathy works. Testing has been very poorly done, there's no measurable mechanism of action, and they can't even explain how a body could distinguish the intended active ingredient from the thousands of contaminants which were surely present in similar concentrations—that stuff isn't prepared in cleanrooms, and distilled water is far from pure. http://lesmondine.wordpress.com/2010/01/28/homeopathy-theres-something-in-it/ http://lesmondine.wordpress.com/2010/01/28/homeopathy-theres... http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/11/measuring_contaminants_and_concluding_th.php http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/11/measuring_contamin... http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html
- adrianwaj 15y ago
  Well, the body does overreact to things: look at the Spanish Flu. If a policeman told you that your family were all killed in aeroplane crash, you'd react in a certain way, even though it wasn't true and they injected no chemicals into you. To me, homeopathy is a way of hacking the body. Anyway, I've mentioned homeopathy once before on HN and was also downvoted, so probably not a great place to bring it up. Add: if a doctor said you only had 5 months to live, you'd probably start doing all these things you'd never got around to doing, or thought you could do, the bucket list - then in 5 months when you're still around, you realize it may have been a lie, but your depression has lifted and you have a new lease on life: that's what I think homeopathy is supposed to be: tiny signals on certain levers, accepted as true, leading to massive effects.
  - prodigal_erik 15y ago
    Oh, the immune system's function is to sequester and kill pathogens, so it's no surprise that it has the right tools to attack the body if it gets confused (e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokine_storm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokine_storm). I just don't see any demonstrated or plausible way to distinguish a 12C (1:10^24) dilution of anything from a plain water placebo.
    - adrianwaj 15y ago
      I am not out to defend homeopathy, but if you take a remedy (and I'm not suggesting you do), see if it has any effects on your mind or body. If it does, then accept that you don't know how or why it is doing so, but it is. In my experience, homeopathic remedies are very powerful and absolutely do work in evoking a reaction, but in terms of curing illness, it becomes more difficult to work out the remedy and dosage: and within such difficulty a skepticism is born. According to my research, homepathic remedies often contain no molecules of the source substance.
jballanc 15y ago
Why would you rely on magical thinking when we have perfectly valid immune-suppressive therapies that are known to work?
- adrianwaj 15y ago
  So when the vaccine fails you take the IS to stop the overreaction?
  - jballanc 15y ago
    Vaccines and drug treatments are two different avenues of attack. The primary purpose of a vaccine is to prevent infection. Certain vaccines, if administered immediately post-exposure, can have some use as treatment, but they are generally used to prevent the initial infection. If you were to become infected, the first route for attack would be neuraminidase inhibitors. There are two widely available kinds of these drugs, and so far they have proven mostly effective against H5N1. There is the possibility for resistance to develop, but so far they do work. If they prove to not work, then (and I am not a doctor, so don't quote me) I imagine the recommended treatment would be high-dose steroids coupled with antibiotics. This is the generic treatment for problematic inflammation. If this treatment proved insufficient, then as a last resort you might try immune-suppressive therapies, but as far as I know that route is largely untested in the field. The bigger point, though, is that modern medicine has many tools in its toolbox, and homeopathy is definitely not one of them. It has never been proven to have any real effect in any sort of rigorous trial. In contrast, all of the other items I listed above (vaccine, neuraminidase inhibitor, steroid, immune-suppressive) have all been extensively tested and verified to be effective.
    - adrianwaj 15y ago
      "Homeopathic therapy was found to be useful in relieving menopausal distressing symptoms such as hot flashes, night sweats, anxiety, palpitation, depression, insomnia, and so on. This study proves the usefulness of homeopathic medicines in relieving DDCY." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22087613 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22087613 "A simple description is provided of the process of potentization in homeopathic dilutions. With the exception of minor details, this simple model replicates the results previously obtained from a more complex model. While excited states are short lived in isolated molecules, they become long lived in nanodomains that form coherent cooperative aggregates controlled by the geomagnetic field. These domains either slowly emit biophotons or perform specific biochemical work at their target." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22073975 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22073975 "Though often criticised, many experiments with remedies diluted beyond Avogadro's number demonstrate specific effects." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22073975 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22073975 WOW - seems to be a lot of evidence to support homeopathy, too bad it's not well known (or rather denied/suppressed through fear!) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21962203 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21962203 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21962202 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21962202 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=homeopathy http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=homeopathy

prodigal_erik 15y ago

There's no reason to think homeopathy works. Testing has been very poorly done, there's no measurable mechanism of action, and they can't even explain how a body could distinguish the intended active ingredient from the thousands of contaminants which were surely present in similar concentrations—that stuff isn't prepared in cleanrooms, and distilled water is far from pure. http://lesmondine.wordpress.com/2010/01/28/homeopathy-theres-something-in-it/ http://lesmondine.wordpress.com/2010/01/28/homeopathy-theres... http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/11/measuring_contaminants_and_concluding_th.php http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/11/measuring_contamin... http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html

adrianwaj 15y ago
Well, the body does overreact to things: look at the Spanish Flu. If a policeman told you that your family were all killed in aeroplane crash, you'd react in a certain way, even though it wasn't true and they injected no chemicals into you. To me, homeopathy is a way of hacking the body. Anyway, I've mentioned homeopathy once before on HN and was also downvoted, so probably not a great place to bring it up. Add: if a doctor said you only had 5 months to live, you'd probably start doing all these things you'd never got around to doing, or thought you could do, the bucket list - then in 5 months when you're still around, you realize it may have been a lie, but your depression has lifted and you have a new lease on life: that's what I think homeopathy is supposed to be: tiny signals on certain levers, accepted as true, leading to massive effects.
- prodigal_erik 15y ago
  Oh, the immune system's function is to sequester and kill pathogens, so it's no surprise that it has the right tools to attack the body if it gets confused (e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokine_storm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokine_storm). I just don't see any demonstrated or plausible way to distinguish a 12C (1:10^24) dilution of anything from a plain water placebo.
  - adrianwaj 15y ago
    I am not out to defend homeopathy, but if you take a remedy (and I'm not suggesting you do), see if it has any effects on your mind or body. If it does, then accept that you don't know how or why it is doing so, but it is. In my experience, homeopathic remedies are very powerful and absolutely do work in evoking a reaction, but in terms of curing illness, it becomes more difficult to work out the remedy and dosage: and within such difficulty a skepticism is born. According to my research, homepathic remedies often contain no molecules of the source substance.

jballanc 15y ago

Why would you rely on magical thinking when we have perfectly valid immune-suppressive therapies that are known to work?

adrianwaj 15y ago
So when the vaccine fails you take the IS to stop the overreaction?
- jballanc 15y ago
  Vaccines and drug treatments are two different avenues of attack. The primary purpose of a vaccine is to prevent infection. Certain vaccines, if administered immediately post-exposure, can have some use as treatment, but they are generally used to prevent the initial infection. If you were to become infected, the first route for attack would be neuraminidase inhibitors. There are two widely available kinds of these drugs, and so far they have proven mostly effective against H5N1. There is the possibility for resistance to develop, but so far they do work. If they prove to not work, then (and I am not a doctor, so don't quote me) I imagine the recommended treatment would be high-dose steroids coupled with antibiotics. This is the generic treatment for problematic inflammation. If this treatment proved insufficient, then as a last resort you might try immune-suppressive therapies, but as far as I know that route is largely untested in the field. The bigger point, though, is that modern medicine has many tools in its toolbox, and homeopathy is definitely not one of them. It has never been proven to have any real effect in any sort of rigorous trial. In contrast, all of the other items I listed above (vaccine, neuraminidase inhibitor, steroid, immune-suppressive) have all been extensively tested and verified to be effective.
  - adrianwaj 15y ago
    "Homeopathic therapy was found to be useful in relieving menopausal distressing symptoms such as hot flashes, night sweats, anxiety, palpitation, depression, insomnia, and so on. This study proves the usefulness of homeopathic medicines in relieving DDCY." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22087613 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22087613 "A simple description is provided of the process of potentization in homeopathic dilutions. With the exception of minor details, this simple model replicates the results previously obtained from a more complex model. While excited states are short lived in isolated molecules, they become long lived in nanodomains that form coherent cooperative aggregates controlled by the geomagnetic field. These domains either slowly emit biophotons or perform specific biochemical work at their target." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22073975 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22073975 "Though often criticised, many experiments with remedies diluted beyond Avogadro's number demonstrate specific effects." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22073975 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22073975 WOW - seems to be a lot of evidence to support homeopathy, too bad it's not well known (or rather denied/suppressed through fear!) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21962203 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21962203 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21962202 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21962202 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=homeopathy http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=homeopathy